After reading the article on gamerant.com, the many comments on here and looking at the petition, I really wonder if actually so many people are delusional and/or are just missing the core point here?! (Or it is just a small crowd with much noise?)
IMHO, there are better places in the world to engage and petition for. (Local communities and regional politics, for example.) But if banning that little “funny” child incest game on Steam puts you up the tree, well, …
Are you really that offended? And why, on point? How in the world can you defend publishing (and selling) games - mostly targeted at young folks - which are quite disturbing, derangend and morally wrong in the name of “freedom” or “independence”? And call that blatantly censorship, when there are instead public guidelines by Steam and their partners?
Don´t you wish for (young) people to develop good values instead of becoming delusional with child pornography, incest, violence, gore and such? What are your values here?
It isn’t about the actual games being targeted. It’s everything about the implications of having a private company dictate what legal content I can buy with my own money. If they cave to lobby groups once, they will do it again. Next time it might be something you care about instead.
Also games made for adults are targeted at adults, not “young people”. You can’t even really see these games on steam unless you are an adult and explicitly turn on visibility of porn games. The average gamer is well up in their thirties at this point as well.
Alright, I understand your point. But I only partially agree with it. Hear me out:
You want a free marketplace to buy whatever you wish, without any dictations? - But any market or shops you can think of has some regulations and dependencies, right? The one who offers the platform dictates what and how it is traded, as far as it has been. And even more if banks or transaction processors are involved, who also have a say. Not ideal, I agree, but the norm.
How do you want to technically solve this? By their own transaction service, like some suggest here? Not sure if that helps, because you might create a new monopoly.
And at the same time, we discuss this here, people demand transparency and environmently responsability for all the delivery chains. Like for clothing or food. - Is that not what happens here? The banks as part of the service chain are pushing Valve to implement stricter rulings about critical content. For me, that looks like what people would ask for. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I think people are mostly upset about some bank telling them how they are allowed to spend their money (by restricting what is available for sale). What if those big banks decide that, say, R-rated movies are too much of a liability for them and demand retailers stop carrying them? I’m not sure what an alternative would be, but allowing a bank to decide what you can spend your money on is a bad precedent given that everyone is basically required to have a bank account these days.
It’s dictated by the law in my country. It’s either legal or it isn’t. The laws are decided through democracy and debated before implementation or changes. VISA doesn’t need to meddle. I have to follow the law, and so do they. We don’t need arbitrary whims on top of that.
Your last paragraph is a false comparison. There’s nothing transparent about what content is currently on the card companies hatelist and what they deem ok. Several LGBTQ related games got hit as well. The transparency in regards to food and clothing is about letting me take informed choices about the products I buy. Cards companies are still letting me buy clothes made by factory slaves and sold via Temu. They don’t care. I have to take that moral standpoint to buy more ethical clothing if I find that the morally correct thing to do. If I want cheap clothing made by slaves I can, with the blessing of my Mastercard. It’s certainly legal.
I’d probably rather buy a porn game made by someone who cared enough about it to make it as a passion project, than a AAA title made with the blood and tears of exploited, underpaid developers to fill the pouches of some overpaid ceo. If ethics is something to value, at least.
@cosmo@lemmy.world, you have solid good points here! - Yes, the laws are democratically set and don’t need extra intereference by VISA, Mastercard or else. It is just my opinion that Valve has been very liberal on his marketplace and not removing critical content themselves. I think, that is what led to the interference in addtion to lobbyist behind the payment processors.
Yeah, my comparison was flawed. But I got the idea across. Right, the transaction process is not transparent, especially not without publishing the “hatelist”. - Especially good point here with the ethical aspect! There seems to be some double standard by VISA etc. about what is acceptable and what is not. I disagree with that, of course, as I still believe in ethical values also when consuming games. ;-) So enjoy you porn game, als long as it has legal themes.
Actually, I am convinced. The article was bad and confused my inital kowledge about the issue. But thank you all for the (mostly) civil discussion. The petition unfortunately is outside my jurisdiction, so I can not sign. But I will keep an eye on the topic.
No worries! The article lacked a lot of important information, absolutely. What worries me a lot is that this activist group also isn’t friendly towards LGBTQ groups and has been trying to get games like GTA banned, as well as Detroit: Become Human, to give a few examples. I find it worrying when these kinds of activist groups gets a fot inside the door, because they sure won’t stop at banning incest games (whether it’s porn or a serious attempt to create a meaningful story about abusive relationships). No one really cares about the porn games that much, I think, but I don’t want potentially good games gone as collateral damage, because some games are trash.
Fully agree, that is worrying and they should not get a foot inside. Better if we would find some safe algorithm or independent moderation to filter the content according to law and ethics. And some independent payment service might also be helpfull, but no blockchain type, please.
After all these years, I still don’t understand the hate against LGB… groups. But it surely looks like the hunting the witches, Roma or Jews in the past. The are a distinctive minority and thus a good target, unfortunately.
“Dog whistle”? Like for right wing talk? That is not what I am or what I mean. What is wrong about developing values? Being supportive to people is one value or finding moral standards, for example. That’s what I talk about.
It’s about the danger posed by a monolithic government or corporation deciding what things get to be traded and sold. Like a fucked up capitalist version of that poem “First They Came”.
Oh, interesting! I know the poem. But I find it a harsh comparison to the situation about Valve’s new regulation. And I did not see it as such a highly-charged political topic. But apparently it is.
To me it does not look like “a monolitic corporation”, as you can still buy games elsewhere. But I surely see the influence that the big banks/transactors have on Valve here. - But how would you limit this? Any technical solutions?
On the other hand, if Valve would have implemented stricter rules for critical games themselves earlier, we would not have that problem/discussion now. (Please also see my other answer below.)
Edit: Typo
To be clear, I’m talking primarily about Visa and Mastercard, the payment processors, not Valve. Those two companies have a pretty big stranglehold on the payment processing industry outside of possibly east Asia? I heard japan has their own payment processor, I assume it isn’t limited to just Japan.
Ok, yes. They are quite “heavy-wheight”. And I might agree with their action now, but maybe another time it might be problematic for me. Also, that’s how Capitalism works: The one with the money decide. But then, we should put pressure on them and not Valve! And the question remains: How would you solve that technically? (This is what the community is about. And I am looking for solutions, not problems here.)
Maybe I’m wrong, but nothing about your side of this conversation seems like good faith in any way.
Just going to put that out there. Your comments reek of someone with zero intentions of challenging their pre-held belief, while pretending that’s not true.
No matter what evidence people bring up to you, you either ignore it or move the goalposts. Almost like there’s an agenda…
hmmm, an agenda? I am not aware I have any. Only here to discuss the topic and get other opinions to understand better. Just being here and chatting with all the folks, even the aggresive ones, already prooves (to me) that I am challenging my point of view.
Sorry, if I gave such bad imression on here. But may I ask some questions, as I find your critique a bit vague? - What do you think is my pre-held belive here? What angenda are you impying? And where am I ignoring evidence or moving the goalposts specifically?
The article mischaracterized the petition. If you read the change.org petition it’s about protesting Visa, Mastercard, and moral advocacy groups. The petition even goes as far as to point out the hypocrisy of the decision.
These same payment processors allowed platforms like OnlyFans to operate with minimal oversight, despite multiple credible reports and lawsuits alleging the presence of real sexual abuse content involving real-life minors. That is a criminal failure of responsibility. Yet, when it comes to entirely fictional depictions, these same companies act swiftly — shutting down creators, restricting access, and acting as global censors.
I wish I had a technical solution but I really don’t. As much as I can’t stand cryptocurrency in the way that it’s being implemented, this is the kind of problem blockchain technology could potentially eliminate. I think the bigger problem is social - people trust credit card companies because of things like charge backs and fraud protection. Shopping in a store is one thing but when you’re buying from a faceless digital store front people seem to want a third-party to secure things and protect their money.
There should just be a nationalized payment option.
I realize this sounds ridiculous given Trump’s government, but do keep in mind that Trump is the private sector. Ultimately, he represents credit card companies in this fight.
Is it a good thing that conservatives want to dismantle USPS? I don’t think so.
What does my account origin has to do with that? Please explain.
No, I don’t want to live in an authoritarian world. But I appreciate businesses following certain moral standards, like banning child porn in every aspect.
Why not enforce these standards through legislation, then? Doesn’t the world’s payment processor, a political body you can’t appeal to when it fucks up, seem a bit heavy-handed?
You’ve got some good points here! These standards are usually enforced by law, just Valve/Steam is extremly liberal on his marketplace. But I fully agree, then the other bodies do not need to interfere, especially when they are so hard to be checked.
Edit: Still, in some way, I wish that companies throughout every service chain would implement and follow these moral standards and laws. And follow though, if they find negligence by other parties. (Kind of a “check and balance” thing.)
After reading the article on gamerant.com, the many comments on here and looking at the petition, I really wonder if actually so many people are delusional and/or are just missing the core point here?! (Or it is just a small crowd with much noise?) IMHO, there are better places in the world to engage and petition for. (Local communities and regional politics, for example.) But if banning that little “funny” child incest game on Steam puts you up the tree, well, …
Are you really that offended? And why, on point? How in the world can you defend publishing (and selling) games - mostly targeted at young folks - which are quite disturbing, derangend and morally wrong in the name of “freedom” or “independence”? And call that blatantly censorship, when there are instead public guidelines by Steam and their partners? Don´t you wish for (young) people to develop good values instead of becoming delusional with child pornography, incest, violence, gore and such? What are your values here?
It isn’t about the actual games being targeted. It’s everything about the implications of having a private company dictate what legal content I can buy with my own money. If they cave to lobby groups once, they will do it again. Next time it might be something you care about instead.
Also games made for adults are targeted at adults, not “young people”. You can’t even really see these games on steam unless you are an adult and explicitly turn on visibility of porn games. The average gamer is well up in their thirties at this point as well.
Alright, I understand your point. But I only partially agree with it. Hear me out: You want a free marketplace to buy whatever you wish, without any dictations? - But any market or shops you can think of has some regulations and dependencies, right? The one who offers the platform dictates what and how it is traded, as far as it has been. And even more if banks or transaction processors are involved, who also have a say. Not ideal, I agree, but the norm. How do you want to technically solve this? By their own transaction service, like some suggest here? Not sure if that helps, because you might create a new monopoly.
And at the same time, we discuss this here, people demand transparency and environmently responsability for all the delivery chains. Like for clothing or food. - Is that not what happens here? The banks as part of the service chain are pushing Valve to implement stricter rulings about critical content. For me, that looks like what people would ask for. Correct me, if I am wrong.
I think people are mostly upset about some bank telling them how they are allowed to spend their money (by restricting what is available for sale). What if those big banks decide that, say, R-rated movies are too much of a liability for them and demand retailers stop carrying them? I’m not sure what an alternative would be, but allowing a bank to decide what you can spend your money on is a bad precedent given that everyone is basically required to have a bank account these days.
It’s dictated by the law in my country. It’s either legal or it isn’t. The laws are decided through democracy and debated before implementation or changes. VISA doesn’t need to meddle. I have to follow the law, and so do they. We don’t need arbitrary whims on top of that.
Your last paragraph is a false comparison. There’s nothing transparent about what content is currently on the card companies hatelist and what they deem ok. Several LGBTQ related games got hit as well. The transparency in regards to food and clothing is about letting me take informed choices about the products I buy. Cards companies are still letting me buy clothes made by factory slaves and sold via Temu. They don’t care. I have to take that moral standpoint to buy more ethical clothing if I find that the morally correct thing to do. If I want cheap clothing made by slaves I can, with the blessing of my Mastercard. It’s certainly legal.
I’d probably rather buy a porn game made by someone who cared enough about it to make it as a passion project, than a AAA title made with the blood and tears of exploited, underpaid developers to fill the pouches of some overpaid ceo. If ethics is something to value, at least.
@cosmo@lemmy.world, you have solid good points here! - Yes, the laws are democratically set and don’t need extra intereference by VISA, Mastercard or else. It is just my opinion that Valve has been very liberal on his marketplace and not removing critical content themselves. I think, that is what led to the interference in addtion to lobbyist behind the payment processors.
Yeah, my comparison was flawed. But I got the idea across. Right, the transaction process is not transparent, especially not without publishing the “hatelist”. - Especially good point here with the ethical aspect! There seems to be some double standard by VISA etc. about what is acceptable and what is not. I disagree with that, of course, as I still believe in ethical values also when consuming games. ;-) So enjoy you porn game, als long as it has legal themes.
Actually, I am convinced. The article was bad and confused my inital kowledge about the issue. But thank you all for the (mostly) civil discussion. The petition unfortunately is outside my jurisdiction, so I can not sign. But I will keep an eye on the topic.
No worries! The article lacked a lot of important information, absolutely. What worries me a lot is that this activist group also isn’t friendly towards LGBTQ groups and has been trying to get games like GTA banned, as well as Detroit: Become Human, to give a few examples. I find it worrying when these kinds of activist groups gets a fot inside the door, because they sure won’t stop at banning incest games (whether it’s porn or a serious attempt to create a meaningful story about abusive relationships). No one really cares about the porn games that much, I think, but I don’t want potentially good games gone as collateral damage, because some games are trash.
Fully agree, that is worrying and they should not get a foot inside. Better if we would find some safe algorithm or independent moderation to filter the content according to law and ethics. And some independent payment service might also be helpfull, but no blockchain type, please. After all these years, I still don’t understand the hate against LGB… groups. But it surely looks like the hunting the witches, Roma or Jews in the past. The are a distinctive minority and thus a good target, unfortunately.
Sounds like a fucking dog whistle for sure. Get off lemmy.
“Dog whistle”? Like for right wing talk? That is not what I am or what I mean. What is wrong about developing values? Being supportive to people is one value or finding moral standards, for example. That’s what I talk about.
It’s about the danger posed by a monolithic government or corporation deciding what things get to be traded and sold. Like a fucked up capitalist version of that poem “First They Came”.
Oh, interesting! I know the poem. But I find it a harsh comparison to the situation about Valve’s new regulation. And I did not see it as such a highly-charged political topic. But apparently it is. To me it does not look like “a monolitic corporation”, as you can still buy games elsewhere. But I surely see the influence that the big banks/transactors have on Valve here. - But how would you limit this? Any technical solutions? On the other hand, if Valve would have implemented stricter rules for critical games themselves earlier, we would not have that problem/discussion now. (Please also see my other answer below.) Edit: Typo
To be clear, I’m talking primarily about Visa and Mastercard, the payment processors, not Valve. Those two companies have a pretty big stranglehold on the payment processing industry outside of possibly east Asia? I heard japan has their own payment processor, I assume it isn’t limited to just Japan.
Ok, yes. They are quite “heavy-wheight”. And I might agree with their action now, but maybe another time it might be problematic for me. Also, that’s how Capitalism works: The one with the money decide. But then, we should put pressure on them and not Valve! And the question remains: How would you solve that technically? (This is what the community is about. And I am looking for solutions, not problems here.)
Maybe I’m wrong, but nothing about your side of this conversation seems like good faith in any way.
Just going to put that out there. Your comments reek of someone with zero intentions of challenging their pre-held belief, while pretending that’s not true.
No matter what evidence people bring up to you, you either ignore it or move the goalposts. Almost like there’s an agenda…
hmmm, an agenda? I am not aware I have any. Only here to discuss the topic and get other opinions to understand better. Just being here and chatting with all the folks, even the aggresive ones, already prooves (to me) that I am challenging my point of view.
Sorry, if I gave such bad imression on here. But may I ask some questions, as I find your critique a bit vague? - What do you think is my pre-held belive here? What angenda are you impying? And where am I ignoring evidence or moving the goalposts specifically?
The article mischaracterized the petition. If you read the change.org petition it’s about protesting Visa, Mastercard, and moral advocacy groups. The petition even goes as far as to point out the hypocrisy of the decision.
I wish I had a technical solution but I really don’t. As much as I can’t stand cryptocurrency in the way that it’s being implemented, this is the kind of problem blockchain technology could potentially eliminate. I think the bigger problem is social - people trust credit card companies because of things like charge backs and fraud protection. Shopping in a store is one thing but when you’re buying from a faceless digital store front people seem to want a third-party to secure things and protect their money.
There should just be a nationalized payment option.
I realize this sounds ridiculous given Trump’s government, but do keep in mind that Trump is the private sector. Ultimately, he represents credit card companies in this fight.
Is it a good thing that conservatives want to dismantle USPS? I don’t think so.
An ml account wanting to have private companies decide what people are able to see and what not.
Guess you just want to live in an authoritarian world no matter who’s ruling
What does my account origin has to do with that? Please explain. No, I don’t want to live in an authoritarian world. But I appreciate businesses following certain moral standards, like banning child porn in every aspect.
Why not enforce these standards through legislation, then? Doesn’t the world’s payment processor, a political body you can’t appeal to when it fucks up, seem a bit heavy-handed?
You’ve got some good points here! These standards are usually enforced by law, just Valve/Steam is extremly liberal on his marketplace. But I fully agree, then the other bodies do not need to interfere, especially when they are so hard to be checked.
Edit: Still, in some way, I wish that companies throughout every service chain would implement and follow these moral standards and laws. And follow though, if they find negligence by other parties. (Kind of a “check and balance” thing.)