Finances. We can’t live in our own home paid for by a single income, don’t have a cushy pension to build up and barely have savings to speak of, as our salaries aren’t adjusted to the cost of living. Trust me, if I could work on opensource without worrying about the rest, I would. But my rent jumps 5-8% every year while my salary doesn’t, the housing prices are insane and would put me in serious debt for 30+ years for an apartment (not house) in a “meh” part of town, which I’d have to sell and buy a new one every 5 years until I can afford a house my parents could buy in their 30s.
Also, I’ve seen what opensource does to maintainers and how much profit companies have extracted from free work without paying back. I truly believe opensource is the way forward, but not by the current definition many people adhere to (free for everybody including companies).
I wonder if it’s the same worldwide. I think we here in Europe work fewer hours in a year. And also in the USA the average didn’t like increase substantially in the last years. I’m not sure about this. Sure, it’s become more difficult. But the numbers don’t seem to reflect young people work longer than older generations. On average it seems the other way around.
In the UK the average salary (no data on median) in 1980 was ~£6000, but average house price was £23000, or 3.8x the salary. This is during a recession.
In 2024 the median salary is ~£34000, but the average house price in the last 12 months is £299000, or 8.7x the salary.
And that’s just housing. Everything else is more expensive too. And you need more things to participate in society.
The country is FUBAR’d by neoliberalism and austerity policies. The houses that go for millions are barely fit for a dog shed, rotten through and through with mold, filled asbestos, insulation that kills you with gas when it burns, and boy will it burn once the boiler older than the 5 day work week finally explodes.
Almost no young people, few as they may be, have any interest in anything beyond making it to the top 1% and why would they? For them CompSci was a grift, and FOSS is just how you get something in your resume. So maintainers get defensive, and well meaning but less apt coders get discouraged too.
For our generation it doesn’t matter if you know git and vim, or only meth and hopelessness, you live in the slums same as everyone. I’m in the top 20% of earners and I couldn’t really even justify a big mac as a treat nevermind spending time on passions.
But I mean if you got the same spare time, just less money… Do you then give up having hobbies? Or have different ones? I’d imagine coding isn’t that bad since you don’t need lots of fancy material goods, just a computer and those got way cheaper.
I can see how someone would be dishartened and then give up contributing to the world. Maybe we see the same dynamics with other voluntary work? I’m not educated on that. It doesn’t feel that bad where I live than I get from reading the news… YMMV. But your numbers are right. And I don’t like that form of neoliberalism and capitalism over people’s lives either.
If you got 7 hours and 500 bucks, you’ve got 7 hours.
Why? Because you’ve paid people to take care of all your chores.
If you’ve got 7 hours and 0 bucks, you’ve got 0 hours.
Why? Well you’re taking the bus to the discount grocery store, you’re doing your laundry, cooking your meals, you’re commuting 1.5 hours each way on broken trains to work and pay £20 for the privilege, you’re looking for new jobs because you think you’ll be fired, and then you won’t be able to make rent, you’re doing 1-way AI-led recorded video job interviews and pumping out cover letters and CVs for job applications, yet never heard back, you’re comparing payday loans to pay for heat, you’re listening out for debt collectors, you’re chasing up your GP for that blood test result from 6 months ago you never got, you’re trying to find a cheaper place, you’re doom scrolling your bank account balance, wondering whether you can cut down on something, anything, maybe a thicker jumper to sleep in during the winter.
At the end of the day, you might have a few minutes to kiss your partner, or apologize to a friend you still haven’t got back to for weeks, and not much else.
So yes, most people cannot afford hobbies. The only thing people can risk it on is something that promises lots of money and an escape from misery, and it’s almost always a grift.
Now there’s no such thing as a hobby coder, it confuses the average person that someone could, as an adult, just make an app for them and their friends, as just a fun thing, as art, as expression or project or whatever. I always tell my coworkers I’m studying for qualifications, but I’m really just learning active directory because it’s interesting.
It is only a thing you either grind for to make money through and pay your dues to the tutorial grifter culture promising big bucks selling endless courses on YouTube by people who are suspiciously not themselves employed as software engineers, or you don’t do it at all.
There’s a huge problem with OSS projects being toxic to newcomers, already existing maintainers get annoyed when they have to explain the peculiarities of their codebase they believe should be simple to understand (it’s not).
I’ve personally stayed away from contributing in the meantime because I have more often than not “asked the wrong question” or have had genuine ones responded with “read the code” or “rtfm”. I understand that some stuff is definitely simple to grasp just by looking at it, but I wouldn’t be asking if I did, right?
The projects that will survive will have good communities and good CoC’s, there’s definitely outliers in that, the biggest being the Linux Kernel itself, though the problems have been reduced quite a bit in recent years.
Nah, it’s not that bad. I’ve contributed to free software for almost 20 years now and it’s not remotely that bad. I get thanked a lot. Maintainers take time to review my ideas and incorporate them so I can use their software how I like. I’ve learned a lot myself and I get to use all that stuff. So I gained a lot and generally it’s been nice interactions.
Occasionally there is some drama. And I’d say there are some computer nerds with behavioral pecularities. It’s rare but it happens. I’d say we’re all just humans. I’m okay with that, and I’ve only had that happen to me in like 1 out of 100 interactions or less. I get annoyed by people way more frequently in my every-day life, so I’d say on average the free software world is a nicer place.
Curious what you contribute to such that you have not had a bad experience, since I see people talk of bad experiences with the people in FOSS on every thread like this, and since you were downvoted for sharing your personal experience which, as far as I can tell, seems to be on-topic and civil with no hint of rudeness or “your bad experience definitely never happened/was your own fault”.
Speaking as someone who also has no/few bad experiences with certain situations where the majority’s experience (at least that I have seen online) is having a lot of negative encounters, so I believe you. I ask because maybe people who want to contribute to FOSS can try contributing to the (type of) things you do too ;)
I have no idea what you contribute to but thank you for your work!
What I really like to do in my spare time is electronics projects and tinker with microcontrollers. So I’ve contributed to a few libraries, added some features, tried to fix stuff and participated in a few smart-home projects. And I self-host some web services. There’s always some mild annoyances or things I find out while doing the maintenance. And sometimes it’s easy enough for me to do some changes myself and I send that to the project.
In my private life, I almost exclusively use Free and Open-Source Software. So if something on my computer doesn’t work as expected, I write bug reports. Sometimes I already got to the root of the issue and if it’s in a programming language I understand, I don’t just file a bug-report but also propose the exact fix.
And some one-off things. During Covid I played Minetest and sent some pull requests out to some mods. And occasionally I see some abandoned (niche) Linux packages or projects and update them. Even if that doesn’t get incorporated anywhere, people will at least have the steps to make it work again.
Generally, I’m not that invested in some specific project. It’s more some smaller fixes here and there. I think people call these “drive-by commits”. I might have some mild form of ADHD, or there’s just too much interesting projects out there… But I’ve struggled homing in on any single one of them. And I can’t muster up the time to maintain anything myself, that’s just too much of a commitment.
And what I also do is participate in Linux forums or here on Lemmy. Just help people with their woes. Or help them make a decision on what software to use, etc… Aside from writing code, that’s also a big and important part of Free Software culture.
My verdict is: Most people I meet are nice. Sometimes they’re really interesting people with some crazy niche interests. Sometimes it’s some dude from oversees having a job and kids and on the side they also maintain some software for the benefit of everyone. Or I want something fixed, propose something and go to bed, and when I wake up the next day, someone put in lots of thought and some time and fixed my stupid issues, or at least restructured their code so I can use their software how I like. And in the case of Minetest it was either some middle-aged people still invested in playing sandbox games, or some teenagers who were frankly not super adept at coding, but very open to suggestions and learning things. That’s the outstanding positive encounters. I don’t have that many negative ones. I’m not here for the drama, but like to keep things to the technical aspect. If someone isn’t listening or an annoying person, I just don’t engage. I mean usually I don’t have to use their software. And I can’t come up with any specific example that I was involved in. Usually my annoyances are either someone doesn’t have the time anymore to maintain their project. But that’s okay, interests change and sometime life takes a turn and you can’t invest lots of time into everything. Or complexity. Sometimes it’s tough to understand some complex software with lots of moving parts and that stops me from engaging, even if I want to. Yeah and I think I talked to a bunch of people who might be on the autism spectrum. I can’t really tell but occasionally someone is super blunt and a bit different than people I meet on the street. I can see how being super honest and picking on someones ideas for technical reasons, or rejecting them, citing formalities can discourage newcomers. Honestly… I myself don’t care. If someone is straightforward, I just take that as an invitation to be very direct myself. Usually these people are focused on the technical aspects and that aligns with me if I just want to use the technology. I can live with that as long as they give some justification for their reasoning. And usually they do. And it’s rare anyways, at least in my experience. So rare that I forgot when I got annoyed by people after the next dozens of very positive encounters. Usually it’s steep learning curves that put me off. But we can’t do much about this except invest lots of time to write good documentation. And it’s a technical problem and not a people-problem.
I’m theoretically against Codes of Conducts and politics in free software projects. I think we should stick to the technical aspects, just respect each other and don’t waste each other’s time. Be welcoming to contributions and don’t care if it’s a 14yo kid, a woman or whoever. Most projects get that right. They don’t write pages and pages of text to describe their politics, but instead they just do it. I think that’s the way to go. I think all of this goes without saying. And if we want to attract people, we should focus on writing documentation that helps them get started, instead of CoCs and GitHub bots that enforce them and make everything more complicated than it really is. But there are some limitations… Bigger projects might have to deal with politics.
What changed about young(er) people?
Finances. We can’t live in our own home paid for by a single income, don’t have a cushy pension to build up and barely have savings to speak of, as our salaries aren’t adjusted to the cost of living. Trust me, if I could work on opensource without worrying about the rest, I would. But my rent jumps 5-8% every year while my salary doesn’t, the housing prices are insane and would put me in serious debt for 30+ years for an apartment (not house) in a “meh” part of town, which I’d have to sell and buy a new one every 5 years until I can afford a house my parents could buy in their 30s.
Also, I’ve seen what opensource does to maintainers and how much profit companies have extracted from free work without paying back. I truly believe opensource is the way forward, but not by the current definition many people adhere to (free for everybody including companies).
Anti Commercial-AI license
I wonder if it’s the same worldwide. I think we here in Europe work fewer hours in a year. And also in the USA the average didn’t like increase substantially in the last years. I’m not sure about this. Sure, it’s become more difficult. But the numbers don’t seem to reflect young people work longer than older generations. On average it seems the other way around.
It’s not really about hours alone.
In the UK the average salary (no data on median) in 1980 was ~£6000, but average house price was £23000, or 3.8x the salary. This is during a recession.
In 2024 the median salary is ~£34000, but the average house price in the last 12 months is £299000, or 8.7x the salary.
And that’s just housing. Everything else is more expensive too. And you need more things to participate in society.
The country is FUBAR’d by neoliberalism and austerity policies. The houses that go for millions are barely fit for a dog shed, rotten through and through with mold, filled asbestos, insulation that kills you with gas when it burns, and boy will it burn once the boiler older than the 5 day work week finally explodes.
Almost no young people, few as they may be, have any interest in anything beyond making it to the top 1% and why would they? For them CompSci was a grift, and FOSS is just how you get something in your resume. So maintainers get defensive, and well meaning but less apt coders get discouraged too.
For our generation it doesn’t matter if you know git and vim, or only meth and hopelessness, you live in the slums same as everyone. I’m in the top 20% of earners and I couldn’t really even justify a big mac as a treat nevermind spending time on passions.
But I mean if you got the same spare time, just less money… Do you then give up having hobbies? Or have different ones? I’d imagine coding isn’t that bad since you don’t need lots of fancy material goods, just a computer and those got way cheaper.
I can see how someone would be dishartened and then give up contributing to the world. Maybe we see the same dynamics with other voluntary work? I’m not educated on that. It doesn’t feel that bad where I live than I get from reading the news… YMMV. But your numbers are right. And I don’t like that form of neoliberalism and capitalism over people’s lives either.
Because more money buys you more time.
If you got 7 hours and 500 bucks, you’ve got 7 hours.
Why? Because you’ve paid people to take care of all your chores.
If you’ve got 7 hours and 0 bucks, you’ve got 0 hours.
Why? Well you’re taking the bus to the discount grocery store, you’re doing your laundry, cooking your meals, you’re commuting 1.5 hours each way on broken trains to work and pay £20 for the privilege, you’re looking for new jobs because you think you’ll be fired, and then you won’t be able to make rent, you’re doing 1-way AI-led recorded video job interviews and pumping out cover letters and CVs for job applications, yet never heard back, you’re comparing payday loans to pay for heat, you’re listening out for debt collectors, you’re chasing up your GP for that blood test result from 6 months ago you never got, you’re trying to find a cheaper place, you’re doom scrolling your bank account balance, wondering whether you can cut down on something, anything, maybe a thicker jumper to sleep in during the winter.
At the end of the day, you might have a few minutes to kiss your partner, or apologize to a friend you still haven’t got back to for weeks, and not much else.
So yes, most people cannot afford hobbies. The only thing people can risk it on is something that promises lots of money and an escape from misery, and it’s almost always a grift.
Now there’s no such thing as a hobby coder, it confuses the average person that someone could, as an adult, just make an app for them and their friends, as just a fun thing, as art, as expression or project or whatever. I always tell my coworkers I’m studying for qualifications, but I’m really just learning active directory because it’s interesting.
It is only a thing you either grind for to make money through and pay your dues to the tutorial grifter culture promising big bucks selling endless courses on YouTube by people who are suspiciously not themselves employed as software engineers, or you don’t do it at all.
There’s a huge problem with OSS projects being toxic to newcomers, already existing maintainers get annoyed when they have to explain the peculiarities of their codebase they believe should be simple to understand (it’s not). I’ve personally stayed away from contributing in the meantime because I have more often than not “asked the wrong question” or have had genuine ones responded with “read the code” or “rtfm”. I understand that some stuff is definitely simple to grasp just by looking at it, but I wouldn’t be asking if I did, right? The projects that will survive will have good communities and good CoC’s, there’s definitely outliers in that, the biggest being the Linux Kernel itself, though the problems have been reduced quite a bit in recent years.
Nah, it’s not that bad. I’ve contributed to free software for almost 20 years now and it’s not remotely that bad. I get thanked a lot. Maintainers take time to review my ideas and incorporate them so I can use their software how I like. I’ve learned a lot myself and I get to use all that stuff. So I gained a lot and generally it’s been nice interactions.
Occasionally there is some drama. And I’d say there are some computer nerds with behavioral pecularities. It’s rare but it happens. I’d say we’re all just humans. I’m okay with that, and I’ve only had that happen to me in like 1 out of 100 interactions or less. I get annoyed by people way more frequently in my every-day life, so I’d say on average the free software world is a nicer place.
Curious what you contribute to such that you have not had a bad experience, since I see people talk of bad experiences with the people in FOSS on every thread like this, and since you were downvoted for sharing your personal experience which, as far as I can tell, seems to be on-topic and civil with no hint of rudeness or “your bad experience definitely never happened/was your own fault”.
Speaking as someone who also has no/few bad experiences with certain situations where the majority’s experience (at least that I have seen online) is having a lot of negative encounters, so I believe you. I ask because maybe people who want to contribute to FOSS can try contributing to the (type of) things you do too ;)
I have no idea what you contribute to but thank you for your work!
What I really like to do in my spare time is electronics projects and tinker with microcontrollers. So I’ve contributed to a few libraries, added some features, tried to fix stuff and participated in a few smart-home projects. And I self-host some web services. There’s always some mild annoyances or things I find out while doing the maintenance. And sometimes it’s easy enough for me to do some changes myself and I send that to the project.
In my private life, I almost exclusively use Free and Open-Source Software. So if something on my computer doesn’t work as expected, I write bug reports. Sometimes I already got to the root of the issue and if it’s in a programming language I understand, I don’t just file a bug-report but also propose the exact fix.
And some one-off things. During Covid I played Minetest and sent some pull requests out to some mods. And occasionally I see some abandoned (niche) Linux packages or projects and update them. Even if that doesn’t get incorporated anywhere, people will at least have the steps to make it work again.
Generally, I’m not that invested in some specific project. It’s more some smaller fixes here and there. I think people call these “drive-by commits”. I might have some mild form of ADHD, or there’s just too much interesting projects out there… But I’ve struggled homing in on any single one of them. And I can’t muster up the time to maintain anything myself, that’s just too much of a commitment.
And what I also do is participate in Linux forums or here on Lemmy. Just help people with their woes. Or help them make a decision on what software to use, etc… Aside from writing code, that’s also a big and important part of Free Software culture.
My verdict is: Most people I meet are nice. Sometimes they’re really interesting people with some crazy niche interests. Sometimes it’s some dude from oversees having a job and kids and on the side they also maintain some software for the benefit of everyone. Or I want something fixed, propose something and go to bed, and when I wake up the next day, someone put in lots of thought and some time and fixed my stupid issues, or at least restructured their code so I can use their software how I like. And in the case of Minetest it was either some middle-aged people still invested in playing sandbox games, or some teenagers who were frankly not super adept at coding, but very open to suggestions and learning things. That’s the outstanding positive encounters. I don’t have that many negative ones. I’m not here for the drama, but like to keep things to the technical aspect. If someone isn’t listening or an annoying person, I just don’t engage. I mean usually I don’t have to use their software. And I can’t come up with any specific example that I was involved in. Usually my annoyances are either someone doesn’t have the time anymore to maintain their project. But that’s okay, interests change and sometime life takes a turn and you can’t invest lots of time into everything. Or complexity. Sometimes it’s tough to understand some complex software with lots of moving parts and that stops me from engaging, even if I want to. Yeah and I think I talked to a bunch of people who might be on the autism spectrum. I can’t really tell but occasionally someone is super blunt and a bit different than people I meet on the street. I can see how being super honest and picking on someones ideas for technical reasons, or rejecting them, citing formalities can discourage newcomers. Honestly… I myself don’t care. If someone is straightforward, I just take that as an invitation to be very direct myself. Usually these people are focused on the technical aspects and that aligns with me if I just want to use the technology. I can live with that as long as they give some justification for their reasoning. And usually they do. And it’s rare anyways, at least in my experience. So rare that I forgot when I got annoyed by people after the next dozens of very positive encounters. Usually it’s steep learning curves that put me off. But we can’t do much about this except invest lots of time to write good documentation. And it’s a technical problem and not a people-problem.
I’m theoretically against Codes of Conducts and politics in free software projects. I think we should stick to the technical aspects, just respect each other and don’t waste each other’s time. Be welcoming to contributions and don’t care if it’s a 14yo kid, a woman or whoever. Most projects get that right. They don’t write pages and pages of text to describe their politics, but instead they just do it. I think that’s the way to go. I think all of this goes without saying. And if we want to attract people, we should focus on writing documentation that helps them get started, instead of CoCs and GitHub bots that enforce them and make everything more complicated than it really is. But there are some limitations… Bigger projects might have to deal with politics.