ICE walked into that courthouse without a judicial warrant - no judge authorized the attempted arrest of the defendant, who I might add voluntarily appeared for his court hearing.
This is the real threat, folks. This is one of many vicious cycles they want to start. Arrest immigrants at their own hearings, when they are already complying with the will of the state. Convince others not to show up to court, make them fear any and all interactions with the state, then accuse them of being fugitives and label all of them criminals by default.
An administrative warrant doesn’t mean shit to a judge. She had every right to tell them to go talk to her boss, and in the meantime? She opened the back door.
That’s it. That’s the crime worthy of arresting a judge. A middle aged Milwaukee woman doing her goddamn job.
She opened a door and let the defendants - who had entered her courtroom legally and voluntarily - depart safely.
These are thugs, these are kidnappers, these are criminals. Obstructing ICE is NOT obstructing justice, because ICE is the one breaking laws and stripping away the rights of every American. They act without legal authority, they act without judicial approval, and they act without any regard for freedom, or rights, or basic human dignity.
It is the goddamn right and responsibility of every American to obstruct ICE at every opportunity, because there is no justice when Judges are forced to bow to them.
I’m not saying any of your points aren’t salient but I saw this story and thought nothing of it, at first. Take it for what it is, the details aren’t entirely clear to me, yet. I’m not going to be like the GOP and follow marching orders just because I read a comment online.
Edit:
I expected the down votes and it’s really sad you won’t even hear me out.
Edit2:
How’s does it feel to be a victim of media narrative? Just letting them jerk your chain because you have no chill?
People are likely willing to hear you out, but you haven’t exactly made a point to hear out.
What details do you find unclear? From what I’ve read, the judge notified ICE that they didn’t have a valid judicial warrant to arrest their target. After that, the judge allowed ICE’s target to leave the courthouse, presumably because the immigrant was not required to comply.
There’s a growing pattern of ICE attempting to take advantage of people’s lack of ability to identify a judicial warrant to pressure them into compliance and/or arrest. I think it’s reasonable to caution anyone that has to interact with any agency that’s known to be shady.
I’m going to warn you: There’s a lot that ICE and the administration have gotten away with because of people claiming “No way. Their actions would be too ridiculous if that’s what it was. There must be more to it.”
What we knew already even before scarce details emerged:
Judges are extremely slow to take deliberate actions, to affirm their position as a fair arbiter that gives all sides chances to respond
ICE has scarcely ever provided sufficient evidence for many of their arrests, including most of the high-profile ones
The immigrants involved in this crime showed no indications of being violent or dangerous (even though ICE claimed they were)
So no, I don’t think ICE can be given benefit of doubt in this case. Every officer involved with this one can be arrested - and they can provide their argument when they go on trial.
The stance is correct. ICE as an agency is a threat to our democracy. Debating the nuance doesn’t help with the point that ICE is able to internally determine who needs to go. With the state of the immigration system and threat to due process people should be standing up to what they believe is wrong. Personally, I think what the judge did was right when the man was there on a pretrial hearing for a seperate criminal matter.
As to the case, a previous 2011 directive for ICE to avoid arrests in or near courthouses was rolled back by Trump. That’s the same one that included sensitive areas such as schools. So now, under executive direction, they can enter public spaces such as courthouses to effect arrests. This has the chilling effect of having persons accused of crimes in local communities avoid court dates and further erodes due process.
Alltogether, ICE wasn’t wrong here procedurally and by the the letter of the law. However morally it’s all sideways. We don’t know if that man would have been transported to another state detention center, given access to a lawyer or even allowed to contact his family. Seeing how the admin has operated, he likely would never have gotten a court date to even review his immigration case.
If you interfere with ICE you can face criminal charges. That’s what they’re pinning on this judge.
So the system by design is f-d up. Notice how on a federal level no officials or anyone else has been arrested for violating due process rights of individuals in those high profile deportation cases? It’s a crazy double standard and the administration will likely pump this case up to show that they have all the power–including (albeit here with a local judge) over the judiciary.
Again, ICE is wrong and what the government is doing to immigrants is wrong. It’s a broad threat to our rights and they’re just getting bolder by the day. Operating legally does not mean you are operating morally.
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so. I don’t care if it’s a judge. I can’t be advocating for the trump administration follow rule of law and at the same time advocating anyone democrat leaning bending the rules to their liking. At no point has any one I consider a legal authority laid out the federal governemnts case and the judges case.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up. It’s looks like bait to me and it’s probably a case the federal government will easily win in the court of public opinion so I’m not going to stick my neck out when it means my credibility is on the line when discussing other, more pressing, matters like Abrego Garcia.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up.
Alright, I will give you far more good faith than you’ve shown me.
You’re not really giving anyone a lot to work with in this thread, but if you’re done jerking your own chain about us being… what? Slaves to the narrative?
This is just extremely cyclical and unproductive poochie. Your reasoning for questioning the public outcry against the FBI arresting a judge… is because people being upset usually means this administration wants them to be upset?
… And not because they may have - yet again - crossed a line that would upset reasonable people?
All of the following is from the FBI’s side of the story.
A man appeared at court for legal proceedings related to charges of domestic violence. His alleged victim(s) - that is, the people accusing him of the crime - were also present. (This would later be a shocking revelation by the Attorney General as if it was some unusual and dangerous situation)
ICE arrive without proper legal documentation to compel the judge to allow them into her courtroom. They demand to arrest her defendant. She tells them they don’t have the right warrant, and to talk to the Chief Judge. While they do so, witnesses allege she instructs the defendant to leave through the “jury door”, or the door at the back of the courtroom.
The agents realize, and chase the man outside the building and arrest him. The FBI later arrests the judge for obstruction of justice and claims she “misdirected” the agents.
All of that is how the administration themselves have described the story, and I invite you to explain to me why I shouldn’t be furious. Why you think we should be upset about Kilmar instead when the two situations are obviously intrinsically linked.
They are trying to make judges afraid of interfering so that they can keep kidnapping and concentrating people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This woman was trying to stop them from making another man disappear.
I hate quoting and clipping but since you were kind enough to take me seriously I’ll do my best to address everything.
is because people being upset usually means this administration wants them to be upset?
I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the left right now is how predictable we are. We do this because the GOP is emotionally manipulative. This is how they get away with being bad faith. They don’t need to be good faith if they can demonstrate everyone is as emotionally driven as they are. Case and point, I woke up to the of r/conservative being this, this morning:
Could I have 100% told you this would be the case?
Yes, but not because I’m a genius. There are at least 3 different, reliables, sources I know that would have commented on this action and they didn’t. Instead, reddit blew up. I cannot emphasis this enough, reddit is not reliable. I’ve been demonstrating it for almost a year now.
They are trying to make judges afraid of interfering so that they can keep kidnapping and concentrating people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This woman was trying to stop them from making another man disappear.
The rest of everything you said appears to be true. They are trying to make them afraid but I’m not sure the exact legal defense for this judge and I’ll wait till I learn it.
There are at least 3 different, reliables, sources I know that would have commented on this action and they didn’t. Instead, reddit blew up. I cannot emphasis this enough, reddit is not reliable. I’ve been demonstrating it for almost a year now.
I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, or how reddit is involved, or why I should care about your sources.
I read a news article about a judge being arrested, and I commented on it. They were all my own thoughts from my own reading. I think it’s abhorrent that ICE can issue their own warrants without judicial approval, and I think it’s worse that if a judge does not comply with those warrants, she can be arrested by the FBI for “obstruction of justice”.
I don’t really care if I’m not one of your reliable sources. This is yet another example of tyranny in action, and I don’t need to wait for someone else to tell me that I should be pissed.
It’s not my particular place to lay out the details in this case. I suspect there are other people who are much better suited but my interpretation is they had paperwork to arrest in a public venue. The court was not said venue. The Judge then purposefully directed him to leave using an alternative exit to prevent his arrest. The legality of that action is what’s in question.
ICE walked into that courthouse without a judicial warrant - no judge authorized the attempted arrest of the defendant, who I might add voluntarily appeared for his court hearing.
This is the real threat, folks. This is one of many vicious cycles they want to start. Arrest immigrants at their own hearings, when they are already complying with the will of the state. Convince others not to show up to court, make them fear any and all interactions with the state, then accuse them of being fugitives and label all of them criminals by default.
An administrative warrant doesn’t mean shit to a judge. She had every right to tell them to go talk to her boss, and in the meantime? She opened the back door.
That’s it. That’s the crime worthy of arresting a judge. A middle aged Milwaukee woman doing her goddamn job.
She opened a door and let the defendants - who had entered her courtroom legally and voluntarily - depart safely.
These are thugs, these are kidnappers, these are criminals. Obstructing ICE is NOT obstructing justice, because ICE is the one breaking laws and stripping away the rights of every American. They act without legal authority, they act without judicial approval, and they act without any regard for freedom, or rights, or basic human dignity.
It is the goddamn right and responsibility of every American to obstruct ICE at every opportunity, because there is no justice when Judges are forced to bow to them.
I’m not saying any of your points aren’t salient but I saw this story and thought nothing of it, at first. Take it for what it is, the details aren’t entirely clear to me, yet. I’m not going to be like the GOP and follow marching orders just because I read a comment online.
Edit:
I expected the down votes and it’s really sad you won’t even hear me out.
Edit2:
How’s does it feel to be a victim of media narrative? Just letting them jerk your chain because you have no chill?
“I’m not going to blindly believe one headline, but I’m also not going to do any research whatsoever. Bring on the downvotes”
You’re wasting everyone’s time.
I did research. No, I’m not trusting anons on the internet. Grow up or wake up.
Unless I know your affiliation, you are just repeating common, unflappalbe facts, or using some sound logic that you would allow to be challenged… no.
You voluntarily came onto the thread and stated loudly and clearly that you didn’t understand the story and thought little of it.
I’ve read all your other comments. You have not only contributed ZERO to the conversation, you have gone out of your way to make it partisan.
Just take a breath and use your brain, such as it is.
I’ve contributed what I contributed. I wouldn’t expect you to value it because its not blind zealotry.
People are likely willing to hear you out, but you haven’t exactly made a point to hear out.
What details do you find unclear? From what I’ve read, the judge notified ICE that they didn’t have a valid judicial warrant to arrest their target. After that, the judge allowed ICE’s target to leave the courthouse, presumably because the immigrant was not required to comply.
There’s a growing pattern of ICE attempting to take advantage of people’s lack of ability to identify a judicial warrant to pressure them into compliance and/or arrest. I think it’s reasonable to caution anyone that has to interact with any agency that’s known to be shady.
If that were the entire story, maybe I agree, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the entire story.
Maybe you should read the entire story, it’s not that long.
When Republicans push media narratives like this it always seems some details are being left out.
“It seems like something is being left out”
“I don’t know the whole story, I won’t read it for myself, and I won’t listen to other people about what it is.”
“Why am I being downvoted?”
Clownmakeup.jpg
🤡people who act suprised when this judge loses her case🤡
I’m going to warn you: There’s a lot that ICE and the administration have gotten away with because of people claiming “No way. Their actions would be too ridiculous if that’s what it was. There must be more to it.”
What we knew already even before scarce details emerged:
So no, I don’t think ICE can be given benefit of doubt in this case. Every officer involved with this one can be arrested - and they can provide their argument when they go on trial.
Why not? What other details do you know?
deleted by creator
The stance is correct. ICE as an agency is a threat to our democracy. Debating the nuance doesn’t help with the point that ICE is able to internally determine who needs to go. With the state of the immigration system and threat to due process people should be standing up to what they believe is wrong. Personally, I think what the judge did was right when the man was there on a pretrial hearing for a seperate criminal matter.
As to the case, a previous 2011 directive for ICE to avoid arrests in or near courthouses was rolled back by Trump. That’s the same one that included sensitive areas such as schools. So now, under executive direction, they can enter public spaces such as courthouses to effect arrests. This has the chilling effect of having persons accused of crimes in local communities avoid court dates and further erodes due process.
Alltogether, ICE wasn’t wrong here procedurally and by the the letter of the law. However morally it’s all sideways. We don’t know if that man would have been transported to another state detention center, given access to a lawyer or even allowed to contact his family. Seeing how the admin has operated, he likely would never have gotten a court date to even review his immigration case.
If you interfere with ICE you can face criminal charges. That’s what they’re pinning on this judge.
So the system by design is f-d up. Notice how on a federal level no officials or anyone else has been arrested for violating due process rights of individuals in those high profile deportation cases? It’s a crazy double standard and the administration will likely pump this case up to show that they have all the power–including (albeit here with a local judge) over the judiciary.
Again, ICE is wrong and what the government is doing to immigrants is wrong. It’s a broad threat to our rights and they’re just getting bolder by the day. Operating legally does not mean you are operating morally.
I like your messaging. I hope it becomes the dominant message.
Okay, I’ll hear you out. What details do you need clarified to be concerned that ICE is interrupting court to arrest people?
I need to know if they have broke any laws by doing so. I don’t care if it’s a judge. I can’t be advocating for the trump administration follow rule of law and at the same time advocating anyone democrat leaning bending the rules to their liking. At no point has any one I consider a legal authority laid out the federal governemnts case and the judges case.
I may very well be on OPs side but what I see is a lot of dust getting kicked up and that usually means the trump propaganda machine is ramping up. It’s looks like bait to me and it’s probably a case the federal government will easily win in the court of public opinion so I’m not going to stick my neck out when it means my credibility is on the line when discussing other, more pressing, matters like Abrego Garcia.
Alright, I will give you far more good faith than you’ve shown me.
You’re not really giving anyone a lot to work with in this thread, but if you’re done jerking your own chain about us being… what? Slaves to the narrative?
This is just extremely cyclical and unproductive poochie. Your reasoning for questioning the public outcry against the FBI arresting a judge… is because people being upset usually means this administration wants them to be upset?
… And not because they may have - yet again - crossed a line that would upset reasonable people?
All of the following is from the FBI’s side of the story.
A man appeared at court for legal proceedings related to charges of domestic violence. His alleged victim(s) - that is, the people accusing him of the crime - were also present. (This would later be a shocking revelation by the Attorney General as if it was some unusual and dangerous situation)
ICE arrive without proper legal documentation to compel the judge to allow them into her courtroom. They demand to arrest her defendant. She tells them they don’t have the right warrant, and to talk to the Chief Judge. While they do so, witnesses allege she instructs the defendant to leave through the “jury door”, or the door at the back of the courtroom.
The agents realize, and chase the man outside the building and arrest him. The FBI later arrests the judge for obstruction of justice and claims she “misdirected” the agents.
All of that is how the administration themselves have described the story, and I invite you to explain to me why I shouldn’t be furious. Why you think we should be upset about Kilmar instead when the two situations are obviously intrinsically linked.
They are trying to make judges afraid of interfering so that they can keep kidnapping and concentrating people like Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This woman was trying to stop them from making another man disappear.
Good morning,
Sorry. I was driving all yesterday.
I hate quoting and clipping but since you were kind enough to take me seriously I’ll do my best to address everything.
I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the left right now is how predictable we are. We do this because the GOP is emotionally manipulative. This is how they get away with being bad faith. They don’t need to be good faith if they can demonstrate everyone is as emotionally driven as they are. Case and point, I woke up to the of r/conservative being this, this morning:
Could I have 100% told you this would be the case?
Yes, but not because I’m a genius. There are at least 3 different, reliables, sources I know that would have commented on this action and they didn’t. Instead, reddit blew up. I cannot emphasis this enough, reddit is not reliable. I’ve been demonstrating it for almost a year now.
The rest of everything you said appears to be true. They are trying to make them afraid but I’m not sure the exact legal defense for this judge and I’ll wait till I learn it.
I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make, or how reddit is involved, or why I should care about your sources.
I read a news article about a judge being arrested, and I commented on it. They were all my own thoughts from my own reading. I think it’s abhorrent that ICE can issue their own warrants without judicial approval, and I think it’s worse that if a judge does not comply with those warrants, she can be arrested by the FBI for “obstruction of justice”.
I don’t really care if I’m not one of your reliable sources. This is yet another example of tyranny in action, and I don’t need to wait for someone else to tell me that I should be pissed.
Well i read the article and thought nothing of it. People seem to be pretty upset with me for it.
Yes? The whole point is that they had the wrong paperwork and were not legally allowed to arrest the guy whose case the judge was presiding over.
It’s not my particular place to lay out the details in this case. I suspect there are other people who are much better suited but my interpretation is they had paperwork to arrest in a public venue. The court was not said venue. The Judge then purposefully directed him to leave using an alternative exit to prevent his arrest. The legality of that action is what’s in question.
Incorrect. An administrative warrant gives no grounds for an arrest, it authorizes fact-finding only.
What law do you think allows ICE to dictate what exits to use?
I’ll wait till I see the supreme court weigh in. I don’t think you’re wrong but that’s where we are at.
If you don’t think I’m wrong, why are you defending ICE here?