I agree with you that Ukrainians are suffering. Russians are too, under Putin’s regime. But some other points you mentioned, I’m not sure how true they are:
my government supported the overthrow of the previous government
It’s my understanding that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Yanukovych in 2014. Does this count as an “overthrow”? If the US Congress were to vote to remove Trump from power, which I believe is legally possible in the US, would that be an “overthrow”?
helped bring in a new government that was unwilling to have free and fair elections
If they had stayed out of the war, then the people of eastern Ukraine would, at the very least, be shut out of any democratic process
I think pro-Russia people could participate in Ukraine’s democracy though. Before 2014 there was the popular pro-Russia party the Party of Regions, and after 2014 there was the pro-Russia Opposition Bloc.
TLDR: I hope the war in Ukraine ends so that no more people die. I think Ukraine should be left alone to make their own democratic decisions though, without Russia invading them. The evidence that I’ve seen (news I’ve read) suggests that Ukraine, while not a perfect democracy, was relatively democratic up until Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Right now they’re not having elections because of the war. Perhaps Ukrainians should be able to decide in the near future whether they want to continue the war or not.
It’s my understanding that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Yanukovych in 2014. Does this count as an “overthrow”? If the US Congress were to vote to remove Trump from power, which I believe is legally possible in the US, would that be an “overthrow”?
Lol after a bunch of armed men stormed the capital? Yes, it does, actually. A better comparison would be if Jan 6’ers succeeded, prevented Biden from coming in and forced Congress to authorize their actions.
Your sources curiously omit the fact that Ukraine banned numerous opposition parties. I don’t see either side as being genuinely democratic, but I also consider that somewhat beside the point. The real point is that neither government operates in the people’s interest.
Every year, another Ukraine slips away from the US’s sphere of influence because there’s only ever money available for war. And the reason for that is because the military-industrial complex is a mechanism for funnelling public funds into private hands, where it can eventually end up in the hands of the people making the decision. What I want is to put a stop to that and spend money on schools and hospitals and infrastructure and that sort of thing. I’m not particularly picky on where or how or why, if they want to develop in foreign countries to uphold geopolitical influence, fine, if they want to develop domestically to win support, cool.
There are countless ongoing crises that are far more important than whatever’s happening in Ukraine, but everything gets ignored unless they can be addressed by dropping bombs on people. And I’ve had enough of it, I have zero patience for it, and above all, I don’t trust my government enough to follow their lead anywhere.
There’s clearly enough evidence to say that Ukraine is at best a “flawed” democracy, and that’s by the standards of bourgeois systems. But even if it wasn’t, even if they were fully in the right and it was as black-and-white as the media pretends it is - it still wouldn’t really matter to me. I have bigger fish to fry at home, get these rulers out, get them out for good, and maybe then I can think of following whoever got them out over to dealing with Ukraine. Until then, the specifics don’t really matter.
I agree with you that Ukrainians are suffering. Russians are too, under Putin’s regime. But some other points you mentioned, I’m not sure how true they are:
It’s my understanding that Ukraine’s parliament voted to remove President Yanukovych in 2014. Does this count as an “overthrow”? If the US Congress were to vote to remove Trump from power, which I believe is legally possible in the US, would that be an “overthrow”?
TLDR of the following paragraph is that Ukraine has had two presidential elections since Yanukovych was removed from power, and both of those elections seem to have been more democratic than Russian “elections”. Here goes: A new presidential election was held in 2014, which Poroshenko won, and then another was held in 2019, which Zelenskyy won. The OSCE, an organisation of the US, Canada, and European countries (including Russia) stated that the 2019 Ukrainian presidential election “was competitive, voters had a broad choice and turned out in high numbers. In the pre-electoral period the law was often not implemented in good faith by many stakeholders, which negatively impacted the trust in the election administration, enforcement of campaign finance rules, and the effectiveness of election dispute resolution. Fundamental freedoms were generally respected”, etc. Maybe not a perfect election, but probably better than in Russia. In a Russian “election” in recent years, “Mr Putin’s biggest critics were barred from running, and there were reports of ballot stuffing and forced voting”. Here is an article from Reuters talking about ballot stuffing in Russia.
I think pro-Russia people could participate in Ukraine’s democracy though. Before 2014 there was the popular pro-Russia party the Party of Regions, and after 2014 there was the pro-Russia Opposition Bloc.
TLDR: I hope the war in Ukraine ends so that no more people die. I think Ukraine should be left alone to make their own democratic decisions though, without Russia invading them. The evidence that I’ve seen (news I’ve read) suggests that Ukraine, while not a perfect democracy, was relatively democratic up until Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Right now they’re not having elections because of the war. Perhaps Ukrainians should be able to decide in the near future whether they want to continue the war or not.
Lol after a bunch of armed men stormed the capital? Yes, it does, actually. A better comparison would be if Jan 6’ers succeeded, prevented Biden from coming in and forced Congress to authorize their actions.
Your sources curiously omit the fact that Ukraine banned numerous opposition parties. I don’t see either side as being genuinely democratic, but I also consider that somewhat beside the point. The real point is that neither government operates in the people’s interest.
Every year, another Ukraine slips away from the US’s sphere of influence because there’s only ever money available for war. And the reason for that is because the military-industrial complex is a mechanism for funnelling public funds into private hands, where it can eventually end up in the hands of the people making the decision. What I want is to put a stop to that and spend money on schools and hospitals and infrastructure and that sort of thing. I’m not particularly picky on where or how or why, if they want to develop in foreign countries to uphold geopolitical influence, fine, if they want to develop domestically to win support, cool.
There are countless ongoing crises that are far more important than whatever’s happening in Ukraine, but everything gets ignored unless they can be addressed by dropping bombs on people. And I’ve had enough of it, I have zero patience for it, and above all, I don’t trust my government enough to follow their lead anywhere.
There’s clearly enough evidence to say that Ukraine is at best a “flawed” democracy, and that’s by the standards of bourgeois systems. But even if it wasn’t, even if they were fully in the right and it was as black-and-white as the media pretends it is - it still wouldn’t really matter to me. I have bigger fish to fry at home, get these rulers out, get them out for good, and maybe then I can think of following whoever got them out over to dealing with Ukraine. Until then, the specifics don’t really matter.