I read an old thread documenting the opinions of Lemmy maintainers an the .ml instance. The issue of funding a project with people openly expressing opinions many find distasteful and it being the biggest reddit alternative on the fediverse came up, so here’s a topic to discuss it.
What should we do? What are the options?
Answer: No fork necessary, there are Piefed and Mbin.
This has been rethreaded so many times I feel like it deserves an entry in knowyourmeme. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one, everyone things someone else’s stink, in the end, what matters is you can support Lemmy without actually supporting the developers (eg.: support your local instance).
Just don’t give money to the instance they own that is pro russian occupation and pro china human right abuses
I think that Richard Stallman is a despicable person. Never stopped me from using and supporting the development of Emacs and GNU tools for the past 25+ years.
If you want to, go ahead.
But Lemmy isn’t a small project. Can you really bear the maintenance burden alone?
And Piefed & Mbin already exist, just recommend them over Lemmy then? They are also supposed to be easier to maintain, so fork them if you want to fork something.
Reactionary forks don’t have a great record of success (or even getting off the ground).
Piefed already exists (although I contest the use of “reactionary” here)
It’s also not a fork
Move to PieFed
What is the difference with Lemmy? What’s better and worse with Piefed?
PieFed is newer so maybe missing a couple features with some clients, but in general is much better managed and more actively developed. It has some features above Lemmy already too. It will win in the end IMO.
I’ll check it out. Thanks.
We already have Piefed and Mbin.
OK, thanks. I guess I’ll be migrating to those and setting up a donation - if they don’t use Github sponsors.
Also the piefed main dev is nice normal human being with humanist views of the world. He has a rational discourse toolkit box with links about how to handle extremism, disinformation and stuff like that.
Piefed would be much better aligned with your views.
Both main devs of Mbin support at least Librepay.
Is the code good? Are you prepared to make any potential fork viable and useful in ways that Lemmy isn’t so people have a tangible, non-ideological reason to choose your software over Lemmy? Do you have a long term goal for funding and maintaining a fork?
That said, Piefed is already a thing, and it federates with Lemmy. It’s where I’m commenting from right now. It has a better on boarding process and does a better job surfacing things I care about.
I write opensource software, I donate to opensource, I use opensource. I however can’t do everything. That is why the question is “we” not “hey @gerowen@piefed.social why don’t you make a fork, you lazy bastard”. Code is not the only way to contribute to a project and I’m willing to donate to lemmy alternatives while it is still possible for me.
Piefed might be where I start donating. Gotta check it out first.
Once every couple months someone makes a post saying “I just found out the Lemmy devs are TANKIES! Won’t someone do something about it?” No one has expressed real interest in forking Lemmy, though plenty of people have expressed interest in someone else forking Lemmy for them.
Most of the dev interest seems to be on Piefed right now. For some reason Mbin hasn’t seemed to really take off, I don’t see people talking about it as much.
Mbin is just kinda weird. I guess there aren’t too many people who are after a Reddit-like that also care too much about microblogging. Or maybe they do but the microblogging part of Mbin is just an inferior experience to Bluesky or Mastodon anyway? Or maybe people just dislike having to call shitposts in meme communities “articles” in “magazines”?
having to call shitposts in meme communities “articles” in “magazines”?
That is super clunky and I do hate it.
You have piefed if you really want to. I personally am fine with developers having views I disagree with, expecting everyone to have the same views as me is unrealistic; if they tried to influence how you host your instance based on their views that’s something I’d disagree, but they do not do so on Lemmy.
We all have limits. For some communicating with those who tolerate genocide is alright, for others using their software is fine, and for even others they will happily give money to them à la “it’s not me, so why should I care?”. But if the number of people who don’t care is not enough to sustain that software development, it will have an effect. We can wait to see if we get that far or do something about it.
I’ll check out Piefed and Mbin as that seems to be most common answer here.
The Lemmy platform is just a tool to manage and delivery content. And I think it’s important to differentiate the software from those who manages the software. I can see there’s is a tacit connection and influence there. But unless they start baking inherently bias features into the software and skewing it, I don’t think it’s a big problem.
Also, because it’s an inherently federated platform, if people don’t like the opinions of those who run a specific instance, they can (with the inclination and determination) spin up their own instance and manage that the way they see fit. And that has happened quite a few times over the last couple of years.
So no, I don’t think it requires a fork really. Not unless the people managing the main branch lose interest and the software starts to wither on the vine, or they start corrupting it somehow. But that’s just my opinion.
I disagree. You are right that through federation and open source you can create your instance if another instance is a nazi bar. But now you open your new bar. Should you buy chairs from the nazis for your bar? Is it not a problem if the nazis are the only ones producing chairs?
That is to me the analogy with lemmy. Yes I don’t have to be on .ml. But I don’t want to sit on the transphobic, genocide denier built chair either.
Technology and society don’t exist in separate spheres and we should always consider them together.
So go with piefed if you can. I haven’t had any complaints since I switched :)
I just wish .ml was more honest with their rules and policies, so people can actually make an informed decision, before they sign up there.
It’s the Communist tradition to force it on unsuspecting people because they don’t want anything to do with it otherwise.
I really don’t like this dangerous trend of condemning actions of people based on wether we agree with them or disagree with them.
Because this behavior is at the base for intolerance and strong polarization.
First of all, I want to judge your actions for what they are, not for what your political views are. So Lemmy is good and I like that full stop. There will be better alternatives (maybe already are) and I will judge them without agreeing with their creators political views.
Second, I prefer to discuss and interact with people who have different views and political ideas than me, because that’s where I grow my ideas and enforce or dispute them. Enough of the echo chamber where the “algorithm” already places us in every social fucking media.
Kids, it’s by enforcing and supporting even the ideas contrary to yours that you grow up. Yes this is annoying and can cause serious brain engagement, but yeah, that’s how we progress.
Even fascists or communist ideas. Zionist or pro-Palestine, pro gender or anti woke, if we start judging peoples actions only for their ideas we become fascists.
I was also tought that what you do is more significant than what you say. Judge by actions, not words.
So I don’t dislike technology because the guy behind it is a fascist or a communist.
Said so, if anybody thinks that can do a better Lemmy by forking it, go ahead and let me judged by the actions.
This is the “radical centrist” position, and it’s serves the fascist power structure.
None of the things you’re comparing to each other are equal or opposite. You’re functionally saying “I consider good and evil to be equal, I tolerate intolerance”.
I’m not sure if you stand behind your examples, because you didn’t really say anything.
For starters…if you wanted to address the topic you would have compared apples to apples ie fascists to tankies. You can’t casually imply fascists and communists are two ends of a spectrum and both have interesting points to make, that’s absurd: the former are evil, and the latter are dreamers. The rest of your examples are similar.
The topic here is “what level of tankie propaganda are we dealing with, and is it appropriate to allow them to control what we read”.
Maybe the fact I am not a native speaker affect how my words are understood.
Actually yes fascist and communist are two ends of the spectrum, I have no idea what tankies means, it seems to be some slang or jargon.
But no, why would using lemmy means people from Lemmy.ml controlling what we read? That’s totally bonkers.
No, fascism and communism aren’t “opposites”…that’s the fascist framing…and that’s my point. It’s extreme centrism and “both sidesing” to claim they are. They’re only opposites if you preface your argument with good v evil…and you didn’t. Fascism is a dangerous system that’s arguably ever-present and destroys humanity….while communism is a highly ideological philosophy that’s never existed. Don’t be confused when highly socialist and authoritarian countries are labelled as communist…they’re no more communist than the DRC was a democracy or a republic.
Tankie is the word you’re looking for: authoritarian communism…and it’s important you use the proper word, because authoritarianism is antithetical to communism. If you didn’t know what the word meant…why did you even comment?
The topic was a conversation about whether or not certain Tankies have an outsized influence on Lemmy, and if that’s bad. The consensus seems to be that they can’t.
OK, let’s say somebody who hates you to the core and wants to see you dead made software you found great. All they said was stuff like “I think your kind deserves to be shot”, “your kind are subhuman”, “they hung your kind and I see nothing wrong with that”.
Would you use their software? Would you enjoy being part of the numbers that they use to validate getting money, maybe even power? Would you publicly promote their software? Would you get others to use it? Would you even donate to them? Would you get others to donate to them?
How does the Lemmy creators actually personally benefit from the fact I run my own Lemmy instance?
I do not donate to them, but how is the technology created be them evil if it fits my concept of decentralized web?
Do they get money because I run my instance o use another one not under their control? O doubt it
I am actually using their tech against themselves, so what?
This is some of the most pretentious, ostentatious posturing I’ve read on this topic.
You really think people can’t see through this?
You don’t see the irony in doing the “sophomoric debate club” thing while calling those that disagree with you “Kids”.
“Dangerous trends”, “base of intolerance” or the pompous drivel about “grow my ideas and enforce and dispute them” are almost comical in their tone.
The world doesn’t work that way. This is a motherfucking internet forum.
Or is this a satire of American style polemics and I got played? 🤣
If it’s satire, then good job!
I am not american and frankly find American style polemics quite hard to understand. Mind me I have quite a few american good friends, and I lived in the USA for a few years too, nothing against USA itself.
But yes Tolerance is at the base of civil life and that’s true even with intolerant people.
I find generic phrases such as “tolerance is at the base of civil life” to be unconvincing, especially when parroted in such an aggressively self-aggrandizing manner. You might as well say something along the line of “An apple a day keeps the doctor way”.
You either don’t have much life experience (and lack intellectual curiosity) or you’re just grandstanding online.
I totally support what you said. If I don’t support someone financially by using his or her product I don’t see a big issue. And when reading through Lemmy comments for any given open source project there is at least one comment saying the mantainer said or did something or even a contributer is an asshole or has the wrong political view and therefore nobody should use the Programm. As long as the maintainer try’s to make something that more or less follows my views for a open and decentralized web I’m fine. If I think about donating on the other hand I would check if the morals are on the same line
And you seems to be from a non US instance, it might be related to the fact you seems to be the only agreeing with me.
But yes, at the end the concept it the technology should not be judged by the political views of the creator.
I also agree with not supporting it finacially if that money goes where you don’t like.
I don’t see a “we” in this, follow the free software way: Don’t like it? Fork it yourself or don’t use it.
It will become a problem for us if lemmy isn’t funded, won’t it?
No. If the project is interesting enough for people spending their time developing and using it there will always be running Lemmy instances. The need for funding over the amount people are willing to dedicate to a hobby project is the death of a project like this.
Only if Lemmy was the only Reddit alternative. As so many people are saying though, it’s not.
e.g. PieFed not only exists but it has surpassed Lemmy in most ways in terms of feature development. And it continues to add new features at an astonishing pace.
There is no hope for “Lemmy” reaching the mainstream in my mind, but with PieFed leading the way, and Mbin also exists (that sounds mean so I’ll clarify: it has <1k users worldwide iirc), and yes a fork of Lemmy could be created if necessary, there is hope for the Threadiverse (federated threaded-based conversational platforms) overall.
Try out PieFed, even just the sign up wizard will leave you amazed. Donate to both its development and the operation costs of the instance that you choose (PieFed.social, PieFed.zip, several others to choose from).
There is Piefed, it’s compatible with Lemmy instances and has a whole load of useful feature for both users and moderators.
Much quicker and responsive development (I’ve been able to get two small feature/improvement requests implemented within weeks of my initial issue post).
One of the Lemmy developers is also an admin on the notorious Lemmygrad instance.
Looks like I’ll be checking that out.
It’s great, a lot better than Lemmy.
The main weakness IMO is that Voyager doesn’t support most of the cool features of Piefed (core interaction works great though). I have yet to try Interstellar. The mobile WebUI is pretty good, albeit in need of some polish and optimisations.
I think most of us using 3rd party apps are missing out on a lot of great piefed features that are available on the default UI. I personally use Thunder. I tried Interstellar but unfortunately don’t really like the UI (at least at its current state). Blorp is also supposed to be built with piefed in mind but it lacks even more UI customization (doesn’t even have compact view mode). I think we can just be patient that our apps will catch up eventually. Piefed is being developed so fast that I can understand 3rd party app devs have a hard time keeping up
Compact view mode like this?Source: I’m Blorp dev
Ah I haven’t checked in a while. Thanks for correcting me! I need to try using Blorp more often.
