Children are a part of the society that you live in, whether you liked it or not. I don’t know who hurt you, but you were also a child once. You pooped your diapers, you cried, you misbehaved. How your parents have treated you when you did these things has a very direct effect on how you behave and think right now. My guess is they were shitty, it would explain your irrational anger and hatred towards kids.
Misbehaving in public is a necessary step to learning how to behave in the first place. It’s a learning by doing thing. You won’t get your child prepared to act kind, nice, and considerate with other people if you don’t let them meet other people. You cannot teach your kid how to behave on the outside at home. How is that not obvious to you? It is inconvenient, it is annoying, it is hard, and it has to be done so that we don’t have underdeveloped, immature, dysregulated asshole adults a generation’s time from now.
Parents are always obligated to watch for their kids and show them how to behave. This doesn’t mean they can, or should, control their every move, word, reaction, emotion, or behavior. If a 3 year old cries and it is uncomfortable for you, that’s your problem. It is not the child’s or the parent’s duty to shut them up with a gag ball ffs. It is their duty to help them resolve and guide them through their overwhelming emotions. So that they will grow up to be emotionally healthy adults.
Children have an innate need to play. They learn via playing. They learn via trying things out and touching them. They learn to walk and run by walking and running - and falling and failing. They also learn about the world from the world’s reaction. Being met with disdain for solely existing and breathing won’t help them to grow up to be adults with a lot of self worth.
You don’t get to decide who is part of the society and village you live in. You don’t get to cherry pick your neighbors.
You don’t want kids in your village go live in a cave.
You can look around and see that the world is not ok on you imposing your misbihaved child on everyone.
I was once a child, correct, and I couldn’t leave my table in a restaurant, that was not even a question. I had to learn to behave otherwise I would be grounded at home. My father left the table more than once in a restaurant to take my brother to be grounded in the car. And came back once it was understood.
Limits are healthy and if it’s tok hard you can always gibe them to social services or not fucking having them.
Just look around a little. Nobody else cares about you baby or you.
Society norms have to be bilateral, and convenient for every member of the society.
One member of society cannot fuck around not expecting to, eventually, find out.
This is why we have laws, norms and social customs. So we can live in a society.
If members of society feel that they cannot longer live next to other members is when society breaks, and, you like it or not, the social pact gets broken.
You cannot force members of a society to live en the minimum common suffering denominator. To lower everyone standards of living to the one provided by the most annoying member of the society. That’s a highway to the society giving the big F to that member.
It should be the contrary, society should try to live to the standard of the less annoyance. To avoid bother the most sensible member of the group.
It’s a everyone loses vs everyone wins situation. We should aim for the later.
Judgement is only partially the problem. You are never as full of yourself as a parental figure as before you become one. Neglectful parents should be held accountable, that is not the core of the issue.
What bothers me immensely is the thought that “your kid, not my problem, but actually it is my problem, because I want them to behave differently”. This is like eating your cake and have it too.
The other thing that I find awful is that just existing on the outside (for some families even inside) is so anxiety evoking because of all these judgements. Parents end up micromanaging their kids and berating them for minor things because they are so fucking scared that people will judge them or yell at them for not having a picture perfect child that you can overlook. Children are not allowed to show any childish behavior on the outside. And this is what bothers me so much. You have to constantly choose between supporting your kid and gentle (not neglectful) parenting where you don’t yell or hit and simply being on their side or trying to appeal to the scrutiny of the public eye because it wants perfect order and quiet.
When you go vacationing in a child friendly country (looking at you, Croatia) and you feel supported instead of frowned upon for the exact same behaviors of your kid, because they are just having fun and not destroying anything and just minding their own business while not perfectly sitting still, then you just understand how shitty it is to go every day feeling the cold stare of everyone around who wished children would just die out.
I am a parent. My kid knows that some things aren’t okay to do in public and especially not in the direction of people who are trying to live their own lives. Teaching courtesy is not complicated.
Your third paragraph, from beginning to end, is INSANE and you’re telling on yourself quite a bit there.
Thank you for representing a normal parent reaction here. I too think this user comes off unhinged. It also seems to me like they think all their parenting shortcomings are someone else’s fault. If no one else’s, those people silently suffering in the public spaces they share with their screaming kids.
That’s a lot of anger you’re spitting just because someone doesn’t want to hear screaming children. My siblings and I were never allowed to scream in public.
Hmm my mother says I was quiet and I observed normal amounts of fussiness from my other siblings that was far less than screaming at the top of their lungs. If they had done that, they would have been shushed, comforted, talked to, or taken somewhere else because my parents took responsibility for their own decisions and for what their children did. Instead of pretending it’s hopeless and that whatever impulse we had was fine.
Not really. There are kids louder than others. And while there may be some internal aspects to that a lot of that have to do with education. Specially as they grow and education starts becoming more a defining factor.
Yes, I have a lot of anger for people who meet the most vulnerable parts of our society with hostility. I have an immense anger for people who don’t think these vulnerable people in the making have a place in society.
Congratulations on not being allowed to scream in public, ever. Did you good. Your parents had shitty standards and now you want to enforce these on other children so that they will also grow up and hate children. Great idea.
What you don’t understand (or pretend not to) is that you’re the one being judged, not the kids. It seems obvious from this chain that your kids are out of control and you get judged for it. I can think of no other reason you’d act this way.
I think the point of contention is that the user you debate is under the (right) assumption that when a child cries in public, this is just a small snapshot out of all the time the parents took them to any public place. A child crying is not a bug, it’s an inherent feature. They sometimes just do that, they don’t even know themselves, so it’s not the parents fault that their mini-human isn’t behaving like a fucking Gucci bag. Everything volvoxvsmarla said is true, children learn through trial an error and yes, you need to sometimes take the brunt of this process, I’m sorry little one. When children don’t learn how to behave in (for example) supermarkets because you banned them, then you get teenagers who didn’t learn to behave. You can’t pass the problem on forever. I’m a teacher and it really fucking shows when kids never learned how to exist in a public place.
BTW., this is not an excuse for parents who evidently don’t give a fuck or even worse, motivate their children to be brats so they entertain themselves. Scum of the earth. But it’s perfectly possible for parents to try their hardest and still fail sometimes.
No one is saying kids shouldn’t be allowed in public. They’re saying if your kid is losing their shit in a restaurant, remove them from the restaurant until they are done losing their shit.
I can tell you a specific scenario I take issue with. At the grocery store the other day, a child screamed at the top of its lungs all over the store. The parent never seemed to notice or care, but people everywhere were looking at each other, all clearly bothered. I’m sorry but that’s not my problem, that’s their shit to work out and they clearly don’t give a shit about others. Shitty parenting, 100% worthy of judgement.
We don’t have to assume that everyone bothered by kids at all hates kids or has no tolerance for their annoyances. OP did that, and took out what seems obvious to me as parental stress on users ITT. So I don’t really have much capacity left to empathize with them in particular.
Neglectful parenting is worthy of judgement. What I take an issue with is that what you observed was a situation - it was a snapshot of a whole day, of a whole life that these people lead. Is the issue that they didn’t care, that they didn’t try to console the kid? How often did you, as an adult, get mad and calmed down after someone said “calm down”? Are you just bothered that they didn’t remove the kid from the situation for your convenience, as well as for their own embarrassment asap? There can be so many reasons why the kid screamed (didn’t get a piece of candy, didn’t get to throw over cans of beans - which you wohld also not like, probably and understandably -, was told to calm down, had a fight with a sibling, hurt themselves, couldn’t get a booger out), why the parents didn’t care (did they not care, did you see them after they had already tried to calm the kid down, talk to them, walk them through everything, do they try not to give more attention to something that was already talked about, or, god forbid, might they just be absolutely exhausted after the 5th tantrum with no reason in a row), why they didn’t leave (great idea to leave behind a full trolley with products for the workers to put back and go home with no groceries after having already spent time and energy to go to the store and have the shopping almost completed, also cool lesson for the kid that it can just yell long enough if they don’t like being somewhere so that they can leave. Works great in schools and hospitals too). But you saw that and decided the kid is feral and the parents are awful human beings that should have no right to a kid.
You both say that’s not your problem and they have to work it out, yet you are absolutely making it your problem and demand they work it out in a way that you find suiting.
I see so many people who think that if you are just loving and caring to a child and work them through their emotions and all they will be just reasoned to calm down. Man, this isn’t even how it works for adults, with developed brains. You guys don’t just expect too much of parents but also of kids. They cannot reason themselves out of these situations just as their arms are simply to short to wipe their own butts for the first three years.
And you might think you only judge the parents and not the kids, but the kids do feel your disdain. They feel your lack of compassion, understanding, and companionship. They learn so fast that the world is full of people who don’t like them. I’m not even going to start with the parents who are being judged no matter what they do. They are judged because their kid is their own person, that has a personality, and if that isn’t a pleasant personality, well fuck them. And if their kid is pleasant, then they have been too controlling and demanding and were too strict and helicoptered them into obedience.
If you, however, have friends or relatives that you know and see regularly and can make a more sophisticated guess on their parenting style, that might be another issue. Still a high horse to judge from, especially when you don’t have kids, but at least you have more than one point in time to make assumptions from.
What you don’t understand is that if that parent gives into the crying and does something different, that child will now continue that behavior because they learned if i scream long enough loud enough, I get my way. Yeah it sucks to be you to have to listen to the crying being a grown-up and all. But it probably sucks to be the parent in that situation even more.
Then, politely, fuck off.
Children are a part of the society that you live in, whether you liked it or not. I don’t know who hurt you, but you were also a child once. You pooped your diapers, you cried, you misbehaved. How your parents have treated you when you did these things has a very direct effect on how you behave and think right now. My guess is they were shitty, it would explain your irrational anger and hatred towards kids.
Misbehaving in public is a necessary step to learning how to behave in the first place. It’s a learning by doing thing. You won’t get your child prepared to act kind, nice, and considerate with other people if you don’t let them meet other people. You cannot teach your kid how to behave on the outside at home. How is that not obvious to you? It is inconvenient, it is annoying, it is hard, and it has to be done so that we don’t have underdeveloped, immature, dysregulated asshole adults a generation’s time from now.
Parents are always obligated to watch for their kids and show them how to behave. This doesn’t mean they can, or should, control their every move, word, reaction, emotion, or behavior. If a 3 year old cries and it is uncomfortable for you, that’s your problem. It is not the child’s or the parent’s duty to shut them up with a gag ball ffs. It is their duty to help them resolve and guide them through their overwhelming emotions. So that they will grow up to be emotionally healthy adults.
Children have an innate need to play. They learn via playing. They learn via trying things out and touching them. They learn to walk and run by walking and running - and falling and failing. They also learn about the world from the world’s reaction. Being met with disdain for solely existing and breathing won’t help them to grow up to be adults with a lot of self worth.
You don’t get to decide who is part of the society and village you live in. You don’t get to cherry pick your neighbors.
You don’t want kids in your village go live in a cave.
You can look around and see that the world is not ok on you imposing your misbihaved child on everyone.
I was once a child, correct, and I couldn’t leave my table in a restaurant, that was not even a question. I had to learn to behave otherwise I would be grounded at home. My father left the table more than once in a restaurant to take my brother to be grounded in the car. And came back once it was understood.
Limits are healthy and if it’s tok hard you can always gibe them to social services or not fucking having them.
Just look around a little. Nobody else cares about you baby or you.
Society norms have to be bilateral, and convenient for every member of the society.
One member of society cannot fuck around not expecting to, eventually, find out.
This is why we have laws, norms and social customs. So we can live in a society.
If members of society feel that they cannot longer live next to other members is when society breaks, and, you like it or not, the social pact gets broken.
You cannot force members of a society to live en the minimum common suffering denominator. To lower everyone standards of living to the one provided by the most annoying member of the society. That’s a highway to the society giving the big F to that member.
It should be the contrary, society should try to live to the standard of the less annoyance. To avoid bother the most sensible member of the group.
It’s a everyone loses vs everyone wins situation. We should aim for the later.
volvoxvsmarla: “look at this fine example of parenting!”
You think the judgment is being leveled at the KIDS? No, no, no… nobody’s judging kids for acting out. They’re kids.
Kids aren’t the problem. Bad parents are the problem.
Judgement is only partially the problem. You are never as full of yourself as a parental figure as before you become one. Neglectful parents should be held accountable, that is not the core of the issue.
What bothers me immensely is the thought that “your kid, not my problem, but actually it is my problem, because I want them to behave differently”. This is like eating your cake and have it too.
The other thing that I find awful is that just existing on the outside (for some families even inside) is so anxiety evoking because of all these judgements. Parents end up micromanaging their kids and berating them for minor things because they are so fucking scared that people will judge them or yell at them for not having a picture perfect child that you can overlook. Children are not allowed to show any childish behavior on the outside. And this is what bothers me so much. You have to constantly choose between supporting your kid and gentle (not neglectful) parenting where you don’t yell or hit and simply being on their side or trying to appeal to the scrutiny of the public eye because it wants perfect order and quiet.
When you go vacationing in a child friendly country (looking at you, Croatia) and you feel supported instead of frowned upon for the exact same behaviors of your kid, because they are just having fun and not destroying anything and just minding their own business while not perfectly sitting still, then you just understand how shitty it is to go every day feeling the cold stare of everyone around who wished children would just die out.
I am a parent. My kid knows that some things aren’t okay to do in public and especially not in the direction of people who are trying to live their own lives. Teaching courtesy is not complicated.
Your third paragraph, from beginning to end, is INSANE and you’re telling on yourself quite a bit there.
Thank you for representing a normal parent reaction here. I too think this user comes off unhinged. It also seems to me like they think all their parenting shortcomings are someone else’s fault. If no one else’s, those people silently suffering in the public spaces they share with their screaming kids.
That’s a lot of anger you’re spitting just because someone doesn’t want to hear screaming children. My siblings and I were never allowed to scream in public.
That person really feels entitled to inflict their children’s bad behavior on everyone else around them.
You were not allowed to but I can guarantee that you were still screaming in public.
Hmm my mother says I was quiet and I observed normal amounts of fussiness from my other siblings that was far less than screaming at the top of their lungs. If they had done that, they would have been shushed, comforted, talked to, or taken somewhere else because my parents took responsibility for their own decisions and for what their children did. Instead of pretending it’s hopeless and that whatever impulse we had was fine.
Not really. There are kids louder than others. And while there may be some internal aspects to that a lot of that have to do with education. Specially as they grow and education starts becoming more a defining factor.
Yes, I have a lot of anger for people who meet the most vulnerable parts of our society with hostility. I have an immense anger for people who don’t think these vulnerable people in the making have a place in society.
Congratulations on not being allowed to scream in public, ever. Did you good. Your parents had shitty standards and now you want to enforce these on other children so that they will also grow up and hate children. Great idea.
We are not talking about kids babe, we are talking about YOU that is too tired to educate
What you don’t understand (or pretend not to) is that you’re the one being judged, not the kids. It seems obvious from this chain that your kids are out of control and you get judged for it. I can think of no other reason you’d act this way.
I think the point of contention is that the user you debate is under the (right) assumption that when a child cries in public, this is just a small snapshot out of all the time the parents took them to any public place. A child crying is not a bug, it’s an inherent feature. They sometimes just do that, they don’t even know themselves, so it’s not the parents fault that their mini-human isn’t behaving like a fucking Gucci bag. Everything volvoxvsmarla said is true, children learn through trial an error and yes, you need to sometimes take the brunt of this process, I’m sorry little one. When children don’t learn how to behave in (for example) supermarkets because you banned them, then you get teenagers who didn’t learn to behave. You can’t pass the problem on forever. I’m a teacher and it really fucking shows when kids never learned how to exist in a public place.
BTW., this is not an excuse for parents who evidently don’t give a fuck or even worse, motivate their children to be brats so they entertain themselves. Scum of the earth. But it’s perfectly possible for parents to try their hardest and still fail sometimes.
No one is saying kids shouldn’t be allowed in public. They’re saying if your kid is losing their shit in a restaurant, remove them from the restaurant until they are done losing their shit.
I can tell you a specific scenario I take issue with. At the grocery store the other day, a child screamed at the top of its lungs all over the store. The parent never seemed to notice or care, but people everywhere were looking at each other, all clearly bothered. I’m sorry but that’s not my problem, that’s their shit to work out and they clearly don’t give a shit about others. Shitty parenting, 100% worthy of judgement.
We don’t have to assume that everyone bothered by kids at all hates kids or has no tolerance for their annoyances. OP did that, and took out what seems obvious to me as parental stress on users ITT. So I don’t really have much capacity left to empathize with them in particular.
Neglectful parenting is worthy of judgement. What I take an issue with is that what you observed was a situation - it was a snapshot of a whole day, of a whole life that these people lead. Is the issue that they didn’t care, that they didn’t try to console the kid? How often did you, as an adult, get mad and calmed down after someone said “calm down”? Are you just bothered that they didn’t remove the kid from the situation for your convenience, as well as for their own embarrassment asap? There can be so many reasons why the kid screamed (didn’t get a piece of candy, didn’t get to throw over cans of beans - which you wohld also not like, probably and understandably -, was told to calm down, had a fight with a sibling, hurt themselves, couldn’t get a booger out), why the parents didn’t care (did they not care, did you see them after they had already tried to calm the kid down, talk to them, walk them through everything, do they try not to give more attention to something that was already talked about, or, god forbid, might they just be absolutely exhausted after the 5th tantrum with no reason in a row), why they didn’t leave (great idea to leave behind a full trolley with products for the workers to put back and go home with no groceries after having already spent time and energy to go to the store and have the shopping almost completed, also cool lesson for the kid that it can just yell long enough if they don’t like being somewhere so that they can leave. Works great in schools and hospitals too). But you saw that and decided the kid is feral and the parents are awful human beings that should have no right to a kid.
You both say that’s not your problem and they have to work it out, yet you are absolutely making it your problem and demand they work it out in a way that you find suiting.
I see so many people who think that if you are just loving and caring to a child and work them through their emotions and all they will be just reasoned to calm down. Man, this isn’t even how it works for adults, with developed brains. You guys don’t just expect too much of parents but also of kids. They cannot reason themselves out of these situations just as their arms are simply to short to wipe their own butts for the first three years.
And you might think you only judge the parents and not the kids, but the kids do feel your disdain. They feel your lack of compassion, understanding, and companionship. They learn so fast that the world is full of people who don’t like them. I’m not even going to start with the parents who are being judged no matter what they do. They are judged because their kid is their own person, that has a personality, and if that isn’t a pleasant personality, well fuck them. And if their kid is pleasant, then they have been too controlling and demanding and were too strict and helicoptered them into obedience.
If you, however, have friends or relatives that you know and see regularly and can make a more sophisticated guess on their parenting style, that might be another issue. Still a high horse to judge from, especially when you don’t have kids, but at least you have more than one point in time to make assumptions from.
That’s a lot of apologia. I get the point though. Their/your decision to have children is my problem and fuck me. But actually fuck that.
What you don’t understand is that if that parent gives into the crying and does something different, that child will now continue that behavior because they learned if i scream long enough loud enough, I get my way. Yeah it sucks to be you to have to listen to the crying being a grown-up and all. But it probably sucks to be the parent in that situation even more.
Also fuck you bud.
Yes this is the kind of excuse needed to give up trying and let the world bear the consequences. Thanks for your valuable input.
Wow whiny little bitch aren’t we?
Absolutely. I swear, these people just want no one to ever dare have children and for humanity to go extinct.