The headlines over the past few weeks have been unrelenting. The Trump administration is activating the full power of the federal government against perceived enemies, from liberal groups to elections officials to a former FBI director.Meanwhile, autocratic powers like China and Russia are running i...
Agreed. The purity testing and splintering into to niche issues is what always screws the left.
If people could just focus and align on some core root cause issues, like getting corrupt money out of politics, the message would be stronger.
All well and good, but what happens when someone comes to the meeting and says “we should end corruption and remove Trump, but I don’t like DEI policies.”
I’m guessing that will suddenly be added to the “root” cause and we’re right back into splintering and purity spirals again.
Hopefully yes, because that’s exactly what it is. You can’t fight fascism with fascism lite.
If everything is “root” then nothing is.
You… you think racism and xenophobia aren’t a root cause of this? If so, you should read a history book. Start from Nixon.
And here we go, a disagreement over policy balloons instantly into “racism and xenophobia” and an ally gets kicked out of the meeting because everything is black or white and no compromise is possible.
I find DEI policies to be a complicated topic, personally. I don’t oppose the basic idea and motive behind them, but I think they’ve been implemented poorly and often turn into discrimination in their own right. Am I now classed as “Trump supporter” in your eyes? I’ve been called a Trump supporter because I don’t like the recent Star Wars movies, so I’m sure a lot of people would indeed lump me in with him on that basis. And thus is proven the basic point about how Trump’s opponents are destroying themselves without Trump’s supporters having to lift a finger.
I honestly don’t think dei did shit one way or another and was all just a show. That being said I agree. Lets all get behind the constitution including all the bill of rights and argue about the other things once we have enough rights to do so in a civilized manner.
“We need to get my rights now. Your rights can come after we can argue about them in a civilized manner.” Setting aside the moral duplicity of this, it’s just not how you build a coalition. For them to fight for your rights, you need to fight for theirs with equal commitment.
So seperation of powers, the bill of rights including speech, assembly, due process, etc. Those are just rights for one person to you? The point is if we can’t express views and assemble or get a day in court then everything else is in the toilet. You need to get a clue.
Oh, so you’re saying you personally don’t like DEI policies. In that case I’m not necessarily calling you racist and xenophobic, but your seeming willingness to accept the results of past racism and xenophobia is definitely concerning. If I was running the meeting you wouldn’t get kicked out, but your “can we not include DEI in our platform” would be met with an uncompromising “no.” Before I explain why, do you understand the concepts of systemic racism and generational wealth?
You need such “discrimination” to undo the results of past discrimination. For example, did you know that despite being only ~0.7% of the population, Native Americans make up about 24% of the poverty population of the US? Is this not injustice? How do you rectify it without affirmative action (aka DEI)?
You’re really, really intent on driving my point home here, aren’t you?
I oppose Trump. I think he’s the worst president the US has ever had and he needs to be stopped. But I expressed an unrelated view that is mildly in opposition to yours, and now that’s the only thing you can think about. You’re focusing entirely on attacking me on this issue.
Have you forgotten that this is about Trump, and about how the only way to defeat him is to get over these sorts of divisions and diversions?
To you this is about Trump. To others it’s about the injustice they have suffered their whole lives that got worse under Trump but did not originate with him. Being able to laser-focus on Trump is a privilege; it assumes that the politically relevant parts of your experience before Trump were if not good then at least tolerable. This is not the case for a massive chunk of the population. I mean, hell, for example ICE kidnappings are nothing new; Trump is just performatively cruel about them. You can’t take a stand against some injustice and expect the people experiencing the chunk you’re letting go to help you. As a wise man once said:
This comment chain is just chef’s kiss
At best I was expecting a few “huh, yeah, that’s a common pattern” responses.
This heap of “you’re racist! Get out!” Rage I got instead illustrated my point better than I could have hoped for. Unfortunately. What a complete lack of self-awareness.
I wonder if anyone would change their mind if I “recanted” and started gushing about how I loved everything about how things were being handled on the left with no reservations or caveats? Or if, once branded an enemy, always an enemy?
In any event not a promising sign for future efforts to take Trump down. Probably for the best I’m not American, I’ll just focus on staying out of the splash zone.
I’m holding out hope that the real world remains separate from social media. We shall see. And for the Americans in the audience, remember No Kings Oct 18!
Racism and Xenophobia are tools the Nixo used quite effectively. Do you think Nixon was racist and that was his goal? Was he in Vietnam because of how racist he was? Perhaps you should take your own advice Re: Nixon and make sure you understand “Why” and don’t confuse it with “how.”
You don’t vote for the candidate you want to fight for you, you vote for the candidate that’s easier for you to fight.
It’s not about fighting fascism with fascism lite, it’s about fighting fascism lite instead of full strength. Whatever you’re going to fight with is going to be much more effective against a weaker enemy.
If that is the case, then I assume you voted for the geriatric cult of personality who will be dead within the year?
The fascist with a cabinet full of fascists, congressional control, SCOTUS control, and a detailed fascist playbook?
No, that would be stupid. Even if he is on death’s door, his replacement will be just as bad.
Ah ok. Then I assume you voted for the PSL candidate who isn’t quite on-board with full communism now (She still believes in markets) , but could probably be swayed that way right?
I did not give any consideration to candidates with no chance of winning, for obvious reasons.
I voted for the one who wasn’t a rabid fascist, and also stood a snowball’s chance of beating the rabid fascist. So the Dem candidate.
If it was useful to vote for allies instead of enemies (say, if our elections were some variety of ranked choice) I would have voted for whoever was most socially liberal and closest to market socialism (since that’s about the farthest we can hope to push the needle in a term or two; after that I’d start considering positions moderately to the left of that, rinse and repeat).
But it isn’t, so I didn’t. Dirty break is the only strategy that makes sense in our political environment. Obstruct the worst major party while you build a better platform grassroots style, and then once that platform is popular and normalized, and the worst major party is neutralized, then start running outside the Dem tent.
Voting for a candidate with no chance of success, with a population effectively propagandized against the platform, does not improve the material conditions of the working class in any way.
Ah, so the very least you could do, not voting for capitalism, you refused to do. However you have concocted a series of didactic expressions to help you rationalize your unwavering support of the “lesser evil”. But added some additional qualifiers that make your position indistinguishable from the average blue no-matter who voter. I’m sure eventually, somehow, your pragmatically compromised morality will certainly defeat fascism.
In the meantime, things have gotten a lot worse for a lot of people, so maybe it’s time for you and the other liberals to try something different?
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
“I’m a huge racist, but I don’t like Trump. Can I join your group?”
No.
That person should go find a “Racists Against Trump” group.
This is another perfect example of the point I’m making. The slightest variation from perfect alignment with your complete set of ideals and you’d rather descend into a purity spiral and purge your own supporters than beat Trump.
It’s a tale as old as history, alas.
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
I’m not going to partner with racists. I am not sorry.
If you are willing to work with fascists and racists, you are not my ally.
Be careful with insisting on “all or nothing”, you often end up with “nothing.” Like what happened in the 2024 election.
Also, I am not a racist. If you read my other comments you’ll find that I’m in favor of the intent of DEI programs, they’ve just been implemented badly in many cases. But it’s just like the virtue-signalling that Trump himself demands of his followers, the moment I said something that seemed slightly out of step I get ejected into the “enemy” camp. No compromise, no effort to understand nuance.
Well, bold strategy, good luck with your future elections I guess.
@FaceDeer @just_another_person @simplejack
I’ll take nothing over partnering with racists.
Winning with racists is losing.
And the racists winning without you is an even bigger loss.
@agamemnonymous
The biggest loss would be aligning with racists.
I’m wondering if some people actually understand what being on the progressive left even means.
Partnering with racists makes you a racist, win or lose.
But but… wHaT aBoUt SuPpOrTiNg GeNoCiDe?
Centrists never have a problem when they do it against leftists, but cry fowl when leftists refuse to compromise with awful human beings that deserve the worst things that happen to them including the end of their lives.