Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn’t involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.
It’s funny how people only interested in the “logic” of harm reduction don’t realize why this is the case. Like, no shit people will get more upset over a police officer killing innocent people over the random maniac with a gun killing innocent people.
This is about the topic of criticizing though. Are you honestly surprised the group who claim to be more moral than murderers are criticized more for murdering?
No, but discussions of morality are for those privileged enough to be entirely out of harm’s way. For the rest of us, there’s harm reduction and threat assessment to consider.
Will criticizing police brutality lead to a safer community? Yes, because the people in charge of them will respond to protests, especially as they grow in size and ferocity in response to the situation and how dire it becomes.
Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.
“Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.”
As someone who would absolutely be targeted by another trump presidency, I’m not sure if this is the case. Sure, his policies are absolutely worse for me and people like me. But at least in rhetoric, democrats (the voters) would suddenly be against the things democrats (the party) are currently doing if trump were doing it instead, which mobilizes more people toward activism and helps protect those in need actively instead of passively if at all. Should the democrats (the party) slowly adopt republican policies (which seems to be the case), wouldn’t it be better for the electorate not to be asleep at the wheel for 4 years leaving my community to die? If democrats (the voters) don’t respond well to alarm bells for genocide, what makes you think they would respond well to alarm bells for transphobic bills that aren’t veto’d, civil rights being walked back, project 2025 being implemented under Harris, and no protections even attempted to combat it? Stochastic terrorism from trump can happen even if he’s not president and insurrection can happen even if he doesn’t win. The real safety in my community comes from the community itself, not the politicians representing billionaires who give sweeping laws, but if liberals are fine with throwing Palestinians to the wolves today, it’ll be the queer community tomorrow.
The queer community has and will fight like we have in the past should we need to regardless of who becomes president, and with or without the support of the masses. Sure, a lot of us might be killed, but that’s the position the comfortable masses always put us in. The lack of criticism of the democrats right now among their base tells me a couple things: 1) the line about “sure democrats and republicans both have duds, but at least democrats hold their own accountable” is a lie and 2) shows me that throwing groups under the bus is okay so long as it maintains comfort and security- meaning we are headed for fascism whether it’s blue or red since it seems like the entirety of the electorate are willing to sacrifice others for their own benefit. Our nation was born out of genocide, so it’s no wonder how easy it is to vote for “lesser genocide” rather than protests, strikes, riots, and generally shutting down the country while helping our neighbors out materially. Either of the two main candidates winning is a testament to how hateful our country really is.
Consent has been manufactured with a false choice given to you by oligarchs and many have been fooled into thinking this is democracy. If you aren’t willing to fight for your rights and the rights of your neighbors, they’re as good as gone already regardless of who you check on the ballot.
Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck. It’s not fake leftist. Liberals can continue to cry and blame everyone else but themselves when they lose.
It’s really easy. Kamala harris could change her view on israel tomorrow, but she won’t. After all, AIPAC owns both parties.
If the dems gave a flying fuck about “preventing fascism” they would do whatever it takes. They won’t.
Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck.
It’s literally objective reality. It is one single issue among many. If you’re unwilling to consider other issues when voting just because one of them is genocide, that makes it a single issue and it makes you a single issue voter.
I don’t give a fuck if that offends you. Get lost.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Sorry, but if people aren’t free to critique their party funding genocide and aren’t free to protest genocide without " helping the enemy", then our system has already fallen to authoritarianism.
Don’t get me wrong, I am voting for Harris. But our two party system is a fucking farce. It makes a mockery of every ideal that democracy is supposed to represent. Authority is supposed to be given from the consent of the people. But most Americans agree that our two party system is broken and yet our politicians have made it impossible for us to fix or replace our broken system because they benefit from it. A system forced on us by a minority for their benefit against the will of the majority is the complete opposite of a democracy.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We’re mad because Democrats see what’s happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.
Electoral politics is a fickle thing. If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
I just can’t seem to understand why nobody seems to get this.
Edit: I honestly can’t wait until November 6th when all of these bullshit, brand new accounts astroturfing for third parties and doing everything they can to get the fascist elected, mysteriously disappear.
And if they don’t, well, I guess this website isn’t for me.
We can’t change course, we obviously have to hit that iceberg and then just hope for the best afterwards. What use would turning at all do. Honestly, I think hitting the iceberg isn’t even that bad of an idea. The other crazy person we would let behind the wheel would also drive us straight into the iceberg anyways but playing music to cover the screams of horror better.
Everyone screaming about the iceberg is just over reacting anyways. The true iceberg is the one after this one and all the other ones hiding out at sea we will get to after we finish smashing into this one.
Why the fuck is everyone so afraid of change or trying things different.
“This is the way”, screw that, we aren’t caricatures.
If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
She has already made it clear that Biden’s policy regarding Gaza is her policy. She has taken sides on the issue already. You just like the side she took.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand. Voting for ANY candidate will not fix it. Even if we voted in a candidate that vehemently opposed Israel, nothing would change. Our military and I intelligence network there is dependent on a strong Israel.
Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except purge congress and get all anti Israel politicians. Good luck making that happen.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand.
“Oh, your feeble anti-genocide mind just can’t imagine the vastness of why we have to keep doing everything Netanyahu wants!”
Democracy is on the line. Our singleminded devotion to the right-wing government of a genocidal apartheid state is less important than preserving democracy itself. But not to Democrats.
Look we just have to work with that national socialist party just long enough to get rid of the dirty communists and get the money rolling again and then we can get rid of them.
Like what’s the worst that can happen while we give them some power?
They burn the Reichstag down? Ha.
Us liberal conservatives have nothing to fear. We are the obvious choice anyways. Who else could they turn to?
I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.
What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.
I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.
Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.
If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.
Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn’t make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
Neither have I. I’ve seen hundreds of liberals argue that fact, though. I’ve had comments deleted elsewhere on Lemmy for “misinformation” for stating that Harris is genocidal.
So I apologise for not sharing your hopeful perspective that we can change the system after the election, because your peers refuse to acknowledge that the system needs to be changed. Perhaps you need to be replying to commenters other than me, because you don’t need to persuade me. Persuade THEM. The rest of the democrat-voting public.
There are also some great ways to get written off by the Democratic Party. Frequently not voting or voting third party makes for an unreliable constituency. No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed. But for a constituency that turns out and works to turn out others, they’re going to be all ears. There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform. They really punch above their weight.
I am a reliable d voter. I’m the block you claim they cater to. I’ve voted in literally every election able always for D. Ole reliable. Except a genocide is a step to far. They could win me back and many other reliable Dems if they did one crazy trick…
first off: if you consistently vote for a candidate no matter what they do then they can write you off.
No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed.
imagine thinking drawing a line at ‘genocide’ is playing hard to get. my god the bar is so low. no wonder we dont have any fucking working class rights. thanks, you definitely know what your doing.
There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform.
yes. do tell. how exactly have the democrats have targetted black women issues specifically? go on I’ll wait.
The real issue is democrats get funding from the 1% and are unwilling to promote worker rights. that’s why they write off the left base issues. fortunately for them the left has been bolstering them regardless every election for decades despite this because republicans would literally murder people for being different. And that generally continues, even right now with harris.
If you look at the policies from harris’ campaign and compare it to 2016/2020.
no healthcare reform mostly just give aways to insurance companies through tax credits.
no minimum wage increase.
wont commit to keeping kahn the most effective FTC chair in more than 4 decades.
wont commit to supporting striking workers.
no mandated PTO/Sick leave for workers.
seems more corporate friendly than worker friendly to me. then add in a genocide on top and completely dismissing a minority group because they are inconvenient and here we are.
What left wing people are really telling you:
vote for what you think is best. If you’re in a safe state go wild on third party candidates. swing state? probably better off w/ harris.
let your reps know that your vote is at risk if the genocide continues post election. and then follow through in the next cycle.
A lot of what you’re listing off is more a symptom of Harris entering the race so late. She’s barely had the time to put together a campaign, let alone flesh out a real policy platform. That usually takes a long time, especially given that she has to show some level of independence from Biden while also
no healthcare reform mostly just give aways to insurance companies through tax credits.
What type of healthcare reform are you referring to? I don’t think that anything terribly drastic is really going to happen within the foreseeable future. The Democrats burned a 60-40 majority in the Senate just to get the ACA, a relatively modest reform, through Congress. Something like single payer does poll well… until you remind people that there’s no free lunch.
no minimum wage increase
She supports an increase to $15/hour, but that was pretty recent.
wont commit to keeping kahn the most effective FTC chair in more than 4 decades.
I won’t defend her here, she should have the courage to tell her tech allies that she’s not going to topple Kahn.
wont commit to supporting striking workers.
I’m not exactly sure what this means. The Biden administration has strengthened labor’s hand on the NLRB, which marked a significant difference from the Trump administration. Are you referring to the railroad strike of 2022?
no mandated PTO/Sick leave for workers.
What left wing people are really telling you:
I would be fine if that was what everyone was actually saying, but I hear a lot of people encouraging not voting or voting third party this cycle.
let your reps know that your vote is at risk if the genocide continues post election. and then follow through in the next cycle.
Politicians are trying to paste together a winning coalition. That’s why you’ll see Kamala’s platform roughly representing the center-left, that is a winning platform for a general election. The problem with having a hard line non-mainstream view on something like the Israel-Palestine conflict is that playing hard to get will only get you so far. If your opinion isn’t supported by the majority, it’s very, very hard to get a politician’s support.
Tim Walz for one has legislated paid leave. If Walz has half the power under Harris’ governing as people seem to believe Harris has under Biden I’d fully expect paid leave out of the Harris Walz admin.
That breaks down when you consider how long Democrats have been moving to the right in order to appease Republican voters. Republicans aren’t known for consistently voting dem.
Vote this election then. And then campaign after the election. What’s stopping you from being the change later? Why teach the a lesson now, when the alternative is Drumpf?
I would argue: Look at the what the people doing the genocide want and vote for their most likely opposition.
Its clear The Heritage Foundation, Netanyahu, Putin, Musk, Thiel etc want Trump to win. I would recommend Voting Kamala on those grounds as denying your enemy a win is far better strategic use of voting as a tool than believing the democrats will ever do the right thing.
I already have. How many times do I have to say that I HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR HARRIS.
And then campaign after the election.
Centrists are great at coming up with excuses for why it’s never the time to do what they don’t want to do. There will be a new excuse and a new timetable for when it will be acceptable to say anything in opposition to centrists’ genocide. When that passes, there will be another date and another excuse.
We just have to do it when we won’t inconvenience them with a changing world and they can go on doing exactly what they are. Preferably so quiet they can forget we exist.
I 100% agree that this is classic manufactured consent, and there is no real choice in this election.
I also want there to be a real choice in the future. The least we can do in the future is get ranked choice voting and do away with the electoral college. Almost literally the least; those are so bare minimum that they can’t even be called radical.
Your reading comprehension is fucking atrocious, then. Even when Biden was the candidate, the vast majority has been saying “ok, continuing to support Isreal as they commit war atrocities is bad, but Trump would be much worse” for Gaza, and a ton of other things. Like democracy in America, for starters"
There are no lines to read between. It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
But you are well aware this. You’re just arguing under false pretext to strawman your way to voter disenfranchisement.
A vote isnt an endorsement. Viewing it as one is a permanent commitment non-voting because even if like Bernie Sanders was being elected people would just say his support of Joe Biden eliminates him from ever being a moral vote.
I would instead say its better to view a vote as strategic tool: its better to deny your enemies a win than let them have one for free. For the Gaza Genocide, I think we can all agree the villain here is Netanyahu and his preference is Trump. A vote for Kamala here may not solve anything, but it does deny Netanyahu additional support he might get.
Okay, cool. Go ahead and state the case, then, if it’s such an obvious fact. Go ahead and say “I will be voting for a genocidal candidate this election, because that is what my country’s political system forced me to do.”
I will be truly impressed if you actually do it.
Most people find some excuse not to. That’s the problem we have.
It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
I literally bolded it for you this time.
Or if you want me to put in in terms of self:
I support a candidate that supports genocide because they support less genocide than the only other plausible option. Both in Gaza and in Ukraine. And less blatant corruption. And less erosion of rights. And less lynching of minorities. And less open encouragement of domestic terrorism.
There, you got your soundbite. Take the bolded portion and pass it around to your comrads out of context for all I care.
Keep on attacking that imaginary strawman. Lemmy .world connected communities as a whole accept the very obvious reality of what the stakes are. In every political thread, this is spelled out over and over because of you “leftists” trying to disenfranchise Dem voters exclusively.
There are plenty of memes caricaturizing you clowns.
They won’t say it, because this is not the argument they want to have. They are much more comfortable talking about how their candidate is so smart and competent when the fact is their candidate is also a bloodthirsty monster. If they really accept that fact, they can’t go back to pretending they’re voting for “a very serious adult”.
This is pure horseshit. Netanyahu has been stringing Biden along for half his career. Biden has willingly turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes going back 30 years.
Trying to deflect decades of failed US middle east policy - policy that Biden helped construct first as Senator, then as VP, and finally as President - and blame it on a single phone call Trump made to egg Netanyahu on is dishonest to the point of denialism.
Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge
We’re doing “Human Shields” discourse again. It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move. Biden, Harris and other establishment liberals absolutely deserve to be relentlessly mocked and criticized (and frankly indicted) for cheerleading Israel’s genocide, but aiding in the political victory of someone twice as genocidal as them, and who also intends to end democracy and target his political opponents would be a bad move.
The difference is you can win a game of chess. There is no winning with our two party oligarchy. Which candidate will give us universal healthcare? Which candidate will give us economic democracy by converting capitalist companies into worker co-ops or nationalizing critical industries? Which candidate will give us free college and the freedom to unionize without fearing for our careers? Neither of them? Cool. So either we vote for liberal corporate oligarchy or the fascist oligarchs will make us pay dearly for it. Either way we lose, but one is worse than the other. Our “democracy” is like holding a gun to someone’s head and telling them they are voting to get shot if they don’t vote to drop their pants and bend over. I’ll do it, but only because the alternative is worse.
Chess moves is a great analogy. There is many situations in chess where you might win a figure but move yourself in a loosing position. The best chess players are those that can think the furthest ahead.
The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election. Dont question the set up you are given. Dont think outside the box. Dont think how not punishing the supposed moral site of politics for genocide might make genocide accepted morals in the long run.
And then if brown people can be genocided in the Middle East, why not in Central America before they flee to the US? And once we are accustomed to that, what about the brown people already living in the US? Sure they speak Spanish instead of Arabic, but there is so awful many of them these days…
That is the longterm outset we see. As climate change will push for migration and refugee seeking beyond anythinf we can fathom these days and as the supposed moral sides of politics in white supremacist countries are embracing “solutions” that used to be of the fringes of the far right, we are descending into white supreme fascism.
The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election.
I am absolutely thinking past the next election. I want to make sure, at any cost, that the person who has vowed to become a dictator on day one, deport millions of legal immigrants, terminate the constitution, and use the military against his political opponents does not win.
In other words, I am voting in this election to ensure that there is a next election.
Since the bad faith leftists seem adamant that genocide is genocide and that there are no shades of grey involved, then my support for either candidate hardly matters in that regard, so I’m not going to let it stand in the way of casting my vote to support other issues that I care about. Women’s right to bodily autonomy and the rule of law are two big ones in my book.
I’m sorry that innocent people are dying in Palestine in a senseless conflict, truly I am. I hope the people of Israel do their own part to hold their government responsible for these atrocities, because ultimately that’s what needs to happen. Israel could continue the war indefinitely even without U.S. support. We are not the lynchpin holding the Israel-Hamas war afloat, we’re just one cog in the machine.
So you think Trump would be better than Harris? Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris. A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes - and we know that statistically republicans are less likely to vote third party (or not vote), so it most likely is a vote for Trump.
no, we (speaking for myself and @selah here) don’t support genocidal candidates. stop making up stories in your head and read what people are telling you.
Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris.
incorrect there were 5 candidates on my ballot. this is a false choice that exists purely in your head. There are many paths to neutralizing trump and that don’t normalize genocide.
A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes
incorrect, pure fiction. i suggest you spruce up on your basic addition and ratio math skills. What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk. maybe she should adopt some policies to fix this.
The reason harris is swinging to the right is because the right wing doesn’t care about worker rights and many are also very disgusted with trump. They require no concessions by capital to garner votes; just a general disgust with trump. If trump wasnt running this wouldn’t be possible.
Hilariously I have no problem with this as a left wing voter. Why? because if the democrats can reliably peel off the few remaining moderate republicans we can finally split this big tent party and get a party that is dedicated to working class rights.
What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk.
so you say that a no vote or 3rd party vote is a vote for trump, then. because those are the only 2 options. either trump or harris will be the next president of the united states. so, hurting harris means helping trump. you do get that, right?
I just want to point out that the idea that “questioning your party helps the enemy” is an authoritarian mentality. If we aren’t free to demand that the left-of-fascism party stop supporting (funding) genocide, then perhaps the US has already fallen to authoritarianism.
you are more than welcomed to pressure kamala on supporting the genocide. in fact, if one week from now she wins, i would hope that the support to stop the genocide continues. i know that AOC and bernie will; and I know that the russian propaganda machine that is just trying to demotivate harris’ voter will not, because their goal is not to protect the people of Palestine, but to impose an authoritarian president in the US.
i assume that some of the people here will continue because they actually care; and some will stop because the propaganda machine will point towards something else
Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part. You’re insulting someone’s vote as a “love letter” (great way to get someone to read and contemplate when you’re taking the meaning of the vote out of context). And your “chess move” isn’t as intelligent as you think, you’re in check and you only have one move.
Just one more fucking week to go and I can’t wait. It’s gonna be so great to see next week how Lemmy is just flooded with 3rd party initiatives, voting changes organization, donations to local and national 3rd party candidates, a heavy focus on anti-gerrymandering and securing voting rights. We’re not gonna continue to discuss how there’s no options and we can’t support other candidacies for at least 3 years…right? Everyone saying now is not the right time is gonna be super active next week with pushing to support the future parties… right?!
Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part.
lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue from you, but little for democrats. Its known Netanyahu wants trump to win and has been trying to make the US as ugly as possible on this issue, the question is, why is Netanyahu playing you like a fiddle?
Its how you wrote it. If there’s an accusation that trump and netanyahu are conspiring to make things worse you give trump and netanyahu grace here. If joe biden is attempting to make things worse you believe that accusation without proof.
We live in a world where multiple presidents have been elected while torching foreign negotiations during their campaign. Reagan notably prolonged the Iran hostage crisis AND began the Iran Contra scandal before he was ever president.
If you think that we should suppose an even worse person like trump is not negotioating on some even darker plan, you simply are simply offering him more grace than fucking reagan deserved. Reagan’s “Peace deal” killed a lot of fucking people.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn’t involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.
It’s funny how people who “hate both parties” only ever wanna criticize the Left
It’s funny how people only interested in the “logic” of harm reduction don’t realize why this is the case. Like, no shit people will get more upset over a police officer killing innocent people over the random maniac with a gun killing innocent people.
And you think it matters to a dead man the profession of his murderer?
This is about the topic of criticizing though. Are you honestly surprised the group who claim to be more moral than murderers are criticized more for murdering?
No, but discussions of morality are for those privileged enough to be entirely out of harm’s way. For the rest of us, there’s harm reduction and threat assessment to consider.
Will criticizing police brutality lead to a safer community? Yes, because the people in charge of them will respond to protests, especially as they grow in size and ferocity in response to the situation and how dire it becomes.
Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.
“Will criticizing the Democrats lead to a safer community? No, because the alternative political party ensures that to be a horrid decision.”
As someone who would absolutely be targeted by another trump presidency, I’m not sure if this is the case. Sure, his policies are absolutely worse for me and people like me. But at least in rhetoric, democrats (the voters) would suddenly be against the things democrats (the party) are currently doing if trump were doing it instead, which mobilizes more people toward activism and helps protect those in need actively instead of passively if at all. Should the democrats (the party) slowly adopt republican policies (which seems to be the case), wouldn’t it be better for the electorate not to be asleep at the wheel for 4 years leaving my community to die? If democrats (the voters) don’t respond well to alarm bells for genocide, what makes you think they would respond well to alarm bells for transphobic bills that aren’t veto’d, civil rights being walked back, project 2025 being implemented under Harris, and no protections even attempted to combat it? Stochastic terrorism from trump can happen even if he’s not president and insurrection can happen even if he doesn’t win. The real safety in my community comes from the community itself, not the politicians representing billionaires who give sweeping laws, but if liberals are fine with throwing Palestinians to the wolves today, it’ll be the queer community tomorrow.
The queer community has and will fight like we have in the past should we need to regardless of who becomes president, and with or without the support of the masses. Sure, a lot of us might be killed, but that’s the position the comfortable masses always put us in. The lack of criticism of the democrats right now among their base tells me a couple things: 1) the line about “sure democrats and republicans both have duds, but at least democrats hold their own accountable” is a lie and 2) shows me that throwing groups under the bus is okay so long as it maintains comfort and security- meaning we are headed for fascism whether it’s blue or red since it seems like the entirety of the electorate are willing to sacrifice others for their own benefit. Our nation was born out of genocide, so it’s no wonder how easy it is to vote for “lesser genocide” rather than protests, strikes, riots, and generally shutting down the country while helping our neighbors out materially. Either of the two main candidates winning is a testament to how hateful our country really is.
Consent has been manufactured with a false choice given to you by oligarchs and many have been fooled into thinking this is democracy. If you aren’t willing to fight for your rights and the rights of your neighbors, they’re as good as gone already regardless of who you check on the ballot.
Calling a genocide a “single issue” is offensive as fuck. It’s not fake leftist. Liberals can continue to cry and blame everyone else but themselves when they lose.
It’s really easy. Kamala harris could change her view on israel tomorrow, but she won’t. After all, AIPAC owns both parties.
If the dems gave a flying fuck about “preventing fascism” they would do whatever it takes. They won’t.
It’s literally objective reality. It is one single issue among many. If you’re unwilling to consider other issues when voting just because one of them is genocide, that makes it a single issue and it makes you a single issue voter.
I don’t give a fuck if that offends you. Get lost.
Or when he invited Netanyahu to Mar-a-lago in july 2024.
Sorry, but if people aren’t free to critique their party funding genocide and aren’t free to protest genocide without " helping the enemy", then our system has already fallen to authoritarianism.
Don’t get me wrong, I am voting for Harris. But our two party system is a fucking farce. It makes a mockery of every ideal that democracy is supposed to represent. Authority is supposed to be given from the consent of the people. But most Americans agree that our two party system is broken and yet our politicians have made it impossible for us to fix or replace our broken system because they benefit from it. A system forced on us by a minority for their benefit against the will of the majority is the complete opposite of a democracy.
Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We’re mad because Democrats see what’s happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.
Electoral politics is a fickle thing. If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
I just can’t seem to understand why nobody seems to get this.
Edit: I honestly can’t wait until November 6th when all of these bullshit, brand new accounts astroturfing for third parties and doing everything they can to get the fascist elected, mysteriously disappear.
And if they don’t, well, I guess this website isn’t for me.
She deserves to lose.
We can’t change course, we obviously have to hit that iceberg and then just hope for the best afterwards. What use would turning at all do. Honestly, I think hitting the iceberg isn’t even that bad of an idea. The other crazy person we would let behind the wheel would also drive us straight into the iceberg anyways but playing music to cover the screams of horror better.
Everyone screaming about the iceberg is just over reacting anyways. The true iceberg is the one after this one and all the other ones hiding out at sea we will get to after we finish smashing into this one.
Why the fuck is everyone so afraid of change or trying things different.
“This is the way”, screw that, we aren’t caricatures.
This analogy is incomprehensible.
Just like the arguments that we must simply accept that there is no options other than continuing exactly as is or exactly as is but more proudful.
There is a lot of complex issues boiled down to nothing to do about it other than huge sweeping options or nothing at all and it’s exhausting.
Some things are bigger than winning or losing, and innocent lives are one of those things.
I agree completely. Which is why we need to do what is in our power to minimize the loss of innocent lives.
And that means doing literally everything we can to stop Donald Trump from becoming president, full stop.
She has already made it clear that Biden’s policy regarding Gaza is her policy. She has taken sides on the issue already. You just like the side she took.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand. Voting for ANY candidate will not fix it. Even if we voted in a candidate that vehemently opposed Israel, nothing would change. Our military and I intelligence network there is dependent on a strong Israel.
Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except purge congress and get all anti Israel politicians. Good luck making that happen.
“Oh, your feeble anti-genocide mind just can’t imagine the vastness of why we have to keep doing everything Netanyahu wants!”
Democracy is on the line. Our singleminded devotion to the right-wing government of a genocidal apartheid state is less important than preserving democracy itself. But not to Democrats.
Look we just have to work with that national socialist party just long enough to get rid of the dirty communists and get the money rolling again and then we can get rid of them.
Like what’s the worst that can happen while we give them some power?
They burn the Reichstag down? Ha.
Us liberal conservatives have nothing to fear. We are the obvious choice anyways. Who else could they turn to?
I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.
What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.
I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.
Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.
If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.
I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that’s just a given.
But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.
Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn’t make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.
Neither have I. I’ve seen hundreds of liberals argue that fact, though. I’ve had comments deleted elsewhere on Lemmy for “misinformation” for stating that Harris is genocidal.
So I apologise for not sharing your hopeful perspective that we can change the system after the election, because your peers refuse to acknowledge that the system needs to be changed. Perhaps you need to be replying to commenters other than me, because you don’t need to persuade me. Persuade THEM. The rest of the democrat-voting public.
There are also some great ways to get written off by the Democratic Party. Frequently not voting or voting third party makes for an unreliable constituency. No politician is going to pay a group that plays hard to get much heed. But for a constituency that turns out and works to turn out others, they’re going to be all ears. There’s a reason causes championed by Black women always feature fairly heavily in the Democratic Party platform. They really punch above their weight.
I am a reliable d voter. I’m the block you claim they cater to. I’ve voted in literally every election able always for D. Ole reliable. Except a genocide is a step to far. They could win me back and many other reliable Dems if they did one crazy trick…
this is just incorrect on so many levels.
first off: if you consistently vote for a candidate no matter what they do then they can write you off.
imagine thinking drawing a line at ‘genocide’ is playing hard to get. my god the bar is so low. no wonder we dont have any fucking working class rights. thanks, you definitely know what your doing.
yes. do tell. how exactly have the democrats have targetted black women issues specifically? go on I’ll wait.
The real issue is democrats get funding from the 1% and are unwilling to promote worker rights. that’s why they write off the left base issues. fortunately for them the left has been bolstering them regardless every election for decades despite this because republicans would literally murder people for being different. And that generally continues, even right now with harris.
If you look at the policies from harris’ campaign and compare it to 2016/2020.
seems more corporate friendly than worker friendly to me. then add in a genocide on top and completely dismissing a minority group because they are inconvenient and here we are.
What left wing people are really telling you:
A lot of what you’re listing off is more a symptom of Harris entering the race so late. She’s barely had the time to put together a campaign, let alone flesh out a real policy platform. That usually takes a long time, especially given that she has to show some level of independence from Biden while also
What type of healthcare reform are you referring to? I don’t think that anything terribly drastic is really going to happen within the foreseeable future. The Democrats burned a 60-40 majority in the Senate just to get the ACA, a relatively modest reform, through Congress. Something like single payer does poll well… until you remind people that there’s no free lunch.
She supports an increase to $15/hour, but that was pretty recent.
I won’t defend her here, she should have the courage to tell her tech allies that she’s not going to topple Kahn.
I’m not exactly sure what this means. The Biden administration has strengthened labor’s hand on the NLRB, which marked a significant difference from the Trump administration. Are you referring to the railroad strike of 2022?
I would be fine if that was what everyone was actually saying, but I hear a lot of people encouraging not voting or voting third party this cycle.
Politicians are trying to paste together a winning coalition. That’s why you’ll see Kamala’s platform roughly representing the center-left, that is a winning platform for a general election. The problem with having a hard line non-mainstream view on something like the Israel-Palestine conflict is that playing hard to get will only get you so far. If your opinion isn’t supported by the majority, it’s very, very hard to get a politician’s support.
Tim Walz for one has legislated paid leave. If Walz has half the power under Harris’ governing as people seem to believe Harris has under Biden I’d fully expect paid leave out of the Harris Walz admin.
That breaks down when you consider how long Democrats have been moving to the right in order to appease Republican voters. Republicans aren’t known for consistently voting dem.
Vote this election then. And then campaign after the election. What’s stopping you from being the change later? Why teach the a lesson now, when the alternative is Drumpf?
I would argue: Look at the what the people doing the genocide want and vote for their most likely opposition.
Its clear The Heritage Foundation, Netanyahu, Putin, Musk, Thiel etc want Trump to win. I would recommend Voting Kamala on those grounds as denying your enemy a win is far better strategic use of voting as a tool than believing the democrats will ever do the right thing.
Oh for fucks sake. Like an abusive relationship.
“I swear this time it will be different!!”
I already have. How many times do I have to say that I HAVE ALREADY VOTED FOR HARRIS.
Centrists are great at coming up with excuses for why it’s never the time to do what they don’t want to do. There will be a new excuse and a new timetable for when it will be acceptable to say anything in opposition to centrists’ genocide. When that passes, there will be another date and another excuse.
We just have to do it when we won’t inconvenience them with a changing world and they can go on doing exactly what they are. Preferably so quiet they can forget we exist.
I 100% agree that this is classic manufactured consent, and there is no real choice in this election.
I also want there to be a real choice in the future. The least we can do in the future is get ranked choice voting and do away with the electoral college. Almost literally the least; those are so bare minimum that they can’t even be called radical.
I sit here with my hand in the sand.
Your reading comprehension is fucking atrocious, then. Even when Biden was the candidate, the vast majority has been saying “ok, continuing to support Isreal as they commit war atrocities is bad, but Trump would be much worse” for Gaza, and a ton of other things. Like democracy in America, for starters"
There are no lines to read between. It’s the bold text that we accept that a vote for Dems is a vote for genocide. But given no other plausible alternative, and the enormous risk to a plethora of other issues that Trump represents, voting for less genocide is the best option on the table.
But you are well aware this. You’re just arguing under false pretext to strawman your way to voter disenfranchisement.
See, we can actually read between lines here.
A vote isnt an endorsement. Viewing it as one is a permanent commitment non-voting because even if like Bernie Sanders was being elected people would just say his support of Joe Biden eliminates him from ever being a moral vote.
I would instead say its better to view a vote as strategic tool: its better to deny your enemies a win than let them have one for free. For the Gaza Genocide, I think we can all agree the villain here is Netanyahu and his preference is Trump. A vote for Kamala here may not solve anything, but it does deny Netanyahu additional support he might get.
Okay, cool. Go ahead and state the case, then, if it’s such an obvious fact. Go ahead and say “I will be voting for a genocidal candidate this election, because that is what my country’s political system forced me to do.”
I will be truly impressed if you actually do it.
Most people find some excuse not to. That’s the problem we have.
Jfc.
I literally bolded it for you this time.
Or if you want me to put in in terms of self:
I support a candidate that supports genocide because they support less genocide than the only other plausible option. Both in Gaza and in Ukraine. And less blatant corruption. And less erosion of rights. And less lynching of minorities. And less open encouragement of domestic terrorism.
There, you got your soundbite. Take the bolded portion and pass it around to your comrads out of context for all I care.
Good for you, I am impressed! Now help us convince all the other democrat voters to do the same and we might actually be able to fix this.
Keep on attacking that imaginary strawman. Lemmy .world connected communities as a whole accept the very obvious reality of what the stakes are. In every political thread, this is spelled out over and over because of you “leftists” trying to disenfranchise Dem voters exclusively.
There are plenty of memes caricaturizing you clowns.
https://lemmy.world/post/21329323
“strawman”
They won’t say it, because this is not the argument they want to have. They are much more comfortable talking about how their candidate is so smart and competent when the fact is their candidate is also a bloodthirsty monster. If they really accept that fact, they can’t go back to pretending they’re voting for “a very serious adult”.
💯
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Funny, but no. ;)
This is pure horseshit. Netanyahu has been stringing Biden along for half his career. Biden has willingly turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes going back 30 years.
Trying to deflect decades of failed US middle east policy - policy that Biden helped construct first as Senator, then as VP, and finally as President - and blame it on a single phone call Trump made to egg Netanyahu on is dishonest to the point of denialism.
We’re doing “Human Shields” discourse again. It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Scratch a fucking liberal…
Trump touts warm ties to Israel’s Netanyahu, blasts Harris
Trump, Netanyahu speak about Gaza hostage-ceasefire deal, Axios reports
Trump says he told Netanyahu to end Gaza war but criticizes ceasefire call
Trump signals support in call with Netanyahu: ‘Do what you have to do’
Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move. Biden, Harris and other establishment liberals absolutely deserve to be relentlessly mocked and criticized (and frankly indicted) for cheerleading Israel’s genocide, but aiding in the political victory of someone twice as genocidal as them, and who also intends to end democracy and target his political opponents would be a bad move.
The difference is you can win a game of chess. There is no winning with our two party oligarchy. Which candidate will give us universal healthcare? Which candidate will give us economic democracy by converting capitalist companies into worker co-ops or nationalizing critical industries? Which candidate will give us free college and the freedom to unionize without fearing for our careers? Neither of them? Cool. So either we vote for liberal corporate oligarchy or the fascist oligarchs will make us pay dearly for it. Either way we lose, but one is worse than the other. Our “democracy” is like holding a gun to someone’s head and telling them they are voting to get shot if they don’t vote to drop their pants and bend over. I’ll do it, but only because the alternative is worse.
Chess moves is a great analogy. There is many situations in chess where you might win a figure but move yourself in a loosing position. The best chess players are those that can think the furthest ahead.
The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election. Dont question the set up you are given. Dont think outside the box. Dont think how not punishing the supposed moral site of politics for genocide might make genocide accepted morals in the long run.
And then if brown people can be genocided in the Middle East, why not in Central America before they flee to the US? And once we are accustomed to that, what about the brown people already living in the US? Sure they speak Spanish instead of Arabic, but there is so awful many of them these days…
That is the longterm outset we see. As climate change will push for migration and refugee seeking beyond anythinf we can fathom these days and as the supposed moral sides of politics in white supremacist countries are embracing “solutions” that used to be of the fringes of the far right, we are descending into white supreme fascism.
I am absolutely thinking past the next election. I want to make sure, at any cost, that the person who has vowed to become a dictator on day one, deport millions of legal immigrants, terminate the constitution, and use the military against his political opponents does not win.
In other words, I am voting in this election to ensure that there is a next election.
Since the bad faith leftists seem adamant that genocide is genocide and that there are no shades of grey involved, then my support for either candidate hardly matters in that regard, so I’m not going to let it stand in the way of casting my vote to support other issues that I care about. Women’s right to bodily autonomy and the rule of law are two big ones in my book.
I’m sorry that innocent people are dying in Palestine in a senseless conflict, truly I am. I hope the people of Israel do their own part to hold their government responsible for these atrocities, because ultimately that’s what needs to happen. Israel could continue the war indefinitely even without U.S. support. We are not the lynchpin holding the Israel-Hamas war afloat, we’re just one cog in the machine.
So you think Trump would be better than Harris? Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris. A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes - and we know that statistically republicans are less likely to vote third party (or not vote), so it most likely is a vote for Trump.
no, we (speaking for myself and @selah here) don’t support genocidal candidates. stop making up stories in your head and read what people are telling you.
incorrect there were 5 candidates on my ballot. this is a false choice that exists purely in your head. There are many paths to neutralizing trump and that don’t normalize genocide.
incorrect, pure fiction. i suggest you spruce up on your basic addition and ratio math skills. What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk. maybe she should adopt some policies to fix this.
The reason harris is swinging to the right is because the right wing doesn’t care about worker rights and many are also very disgusted with trump. They require no concessions by capital to garner votes; just a general disgust with trump. If trump wasnt running this wouldn’t be possible.
Hilariously I have no problem with this as a left wing voter. Why? because if the democrats can reliably peel off the few remaining moderate republicans we can finally split this big tent party and get a party that is dedicated to working class rights.
so you say that a no vote or 3rd party vote is a vote for trump, then. because those are the only 2 options. either trump or harris will be the next president of the united states. so, hurting harris means helping trump. you do get that, right?
I just want to point out that the idea that “questioning your party helps the enemy” is an authoritarian mentality. If we aren’t free to demand that the left-of-fascism party stop supporting (funding) genocide, then perhaps the US has already fallen to authoritarianism.
you are more than welcomed to pressure kamala on supporting the genocide. in fact, if one week from now she wins, i would hope that the support to stop the genocide continues. i know that AOC and bernie will; and I know that the russian propaganda machine that is just trying to demotivate harris’ voter will not, because their goal is not to protect the people of Palestine, but to impose an authoritarian president in the US. i assume that some of the people here will continue because they actually care; and some will stop because the propaganda machine will point towards something else
But the timeline is:
Prevent worse
After that protest and show the democrats how much you disagree with their stance on that
Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part. You’re insulting someone’s vote as a “love letter” (great way to get someone to read and contemplate when you’re taking the meaning of the vote out of context). And your “chess move” isn’t as intelligent as you think, you’re in check and you only have one move.
Just one more fucking week to go and I can’t wait. It’s gonna be so great to see next week how Lemmy is just flooded with 3rd party initiatives, voting changes organization, donations to local and national 3rd party candidates, a heavy focus on anti-gerrymandering and securing voting rights. We’re not gonna continue to discuss how there’s no options and we can’t support other candidacies for at least 3 years…right? Everyone saying now is not the right time is gonna be super active next week with pushing to support the future parties… right?!
Pretty sure that’s the intent.
lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue from you, but little for democrats. Its known Netanyahu wants trump to win and has been trying to make the US as ugly as possible on this issue, the question is, why is Netanyahu playing you like a fiddle?
If that’s how you’ve chosen to read it, there’s no reaching you.
Its how you wrote it. If there’s an accusation that trump and netanyahu are conspiring to make things worse you give trump and netanyahu grace here. If joe biden is attempting to make things worse you believe that accusation without proof.
We live in a world where multiple presidents have been elected while torching foreign negotiations during their campaign. Reagan notably prolonged the Iran hostage crisis AND began the Iran Contra scandal before he was ever president.
If you think that we should suppose an even worse person like trump is not negotioating on some even darker plan, you simply are simply offering him more grace than fucking reagan deserved. Reagan’s “Peace deal” killed a lot of fucking people.