• Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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    23 hours ago

    Yep, overall the Soviets paid by far the largest price, and were responsible for ~85% of Nazi deaths. This should be unsurprising for anyone, though, considering communism and fascism are polar opposites, the former throughly devoted to thr working class and the collectivization of property, the latter thoroughly devoted to violently retaining bourgeois property and killing all who are percived to risk that. Blackshirts and Reds is a good read.

    • sik0fewl@lemmy.ca
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      18 hours ago

      I mean, it’s a little surprising considering that they started the war on the same side. And I think it was Nazi Germany’s imperial ambitions that made them betray Russia and not their differing economic views.

      But then, you did read a book, which is more than I did 😅.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        13 hours ago

        They were never on the same side. There were numerous treaties with Britain, France, etc that the Soviets proposed in order to take on the Nazis together, but they were denied, as western Europe and the US were doing a ton of business with Nazi Germany and were more opposed to the soviets. In fact, Western Europe already signed numerous non-aggression pacts with Nazi Germany, similar to the soviet-Nazi pact, but far earlier. The soviet pact was made on the eve of war to buy time, the soviets and Nazis never trusted each other.

        This is only more clear if you look into how each country portrayed the other in the 30s. Communism and fascism are, again, polar opposites in property relations, they hated each other. The Nazis even saw Slavic peoples as being genetically inferior. Marxists were always opposed to fascism, and that didn’t change when the Nazis came to power. They were never on the “same side,” the soviets only went into Poland weeks after the Nazis did.

        When it came time for World War II, all of that tension came to a head. The Nazis despised the communists above all else, and unlike Britain and France, tried to commit genocide against them. The communists despised the Nazis, and liberated Berlin years later.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            10 hours ago
            1. The areas the Soviets went after were largely territories Poland had annexed during the 1919 Polish-Ukrainian War, and included territories of modern day Ukraine, Lithuania, and Belarus. The Lithuanians in particular were ethnically oppressed by the nationalists in Poland.

            2. Throughout the 1930s, the Soviets had tried to establish a joint French/British/Soviet/Polish defensive pact against Nazi invasion. Britain and France ignored the proposal, as they wished to see Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union destroy each other. Poland also ignored the negotiations, including the Soviet offer to send 1 million troops to Poland and France to help against possible invasion.

            3. The Soviets entered Poland after the Nazis, by several weeks. They prevented Nazi Germany from taking the entirety of Poland, and, as per earlier, mostly stuck to territories Poland had invaded only 20 years earlier.

            The Soviets and Nazis were never allies. They hated each other from the very beginning, and spent a long time preparing for war with the other. The Soviet Union in particular had to be careful, as it had an extremely short time spent on industrialization, which it began in earnest after toppling the Tsar, while Germany had a century of industrialization on its side.

            • The Polish didn't just ignore it, they would really, kinda, rather not work with the Soviets.

                On March 17 [1939] the British Government suddenly remembered the existence of the Soviet Union and inquired what its attitude would be toward the Hitler threat in Eastern Europe. Moscow replied promptly and proposed an immediate conference between Britain, France, the U.S.S.R., Poland, Rumania and Turkey to consider how to resist German aggression. This was exactly and obviously what was urgently needed. Nothing less than a drawing together of all the threatened states could be of any avail. Rumania was under intense pressure to turn over her economy to Germany and the quickest action was needed.
                However, the Chamberlain clique could not make the shift. Knowing that they wanted to solve the Nazi menace on the plains of Russia, they ascribed to Russia the very same design of which they were guilty, as devious men so often do. They had a “deep seated conviction,” shared also by the French Rightists, that Russia wished to destroy the capitalist system in Europe by provoking a war from which she would remain aloof.5 The entire diplomatic record of the past five years belied this self-justifying suspicion. It showed that Russia was desperately anxious to avoid war, but also that on every occasion, without exception, she had sought to avoid war for herself by combining with others to prevent aggression or nip it in the bud. It was Russia which had incessantly pleaded that “peace is indivisible,” warning that if war came all would be engulfed in it.
                All this had meant nothing to conservative men bent on making terms with fascism and preserving it. Now, therefore, Chamberlain hesitated a week until Rumania capitulated and on March 18 notified Russia that her conference proposal was “premature.” This was the same rebuff given to Russia when she had proposed a conference a year earlier, at the time of Hitler’s conquest of Austria. Again there was no hurry, but this time Chamberlain did propose a substitute plan whereby Britain, France, Russia and Poland would consult if any further acts of aggression were believed to be imminent, but even this proposal was abortive, since it was at once learned, says Chamberlain’s biographer, that “Poland would refuse contact with the Soviet, which alone was enough to prevent us from taking up the Russian proposal for a six-power conference.” Chamberlain did not blame the Polish Government. He confided to his diary, on March 26: “I must confess to the most profound distrust of Russia,”6

              Poland’s comfortable blocking of any liaison with Russia revealed the impossibility of stopping Hitler, at this late date, without a gigantic world war. Poland was now the prisoner of her conquests. Obsessed by delusions of grandeur, she had conquered from Russia some ten millions of White Russians and Ukrainians whom her great landlords did not dare to trust in contact with Russian troops, even if they were fighting for Poland’s very life. Poland had also aggrandized herself at the expense of Germany, Lithuania and Czechoslovakia, acting like an eager and vindictive vulture when Czechoslovakia was being dismembered. The cause and result of this attitude toward her neighbors was that the splendid Polish people were “ruled by an incompetent and purblind oligarchy who preferred government by junta rather than by parliament.”7 This oligarchy of landlords and colonels also believed itself to be a Great Power. Impressed by its conquests, it adopted the impossible policy of balancing both of its huge neighbors against each other. Colonel Beck’s slogan, “Not a millimeter nearer to Berlin than to Moscow,” would have been valid under a strong League of Nations, but it meant certain destruction in the midst of an anarchy of aggression on the loose. In this situation Poland might survive by close alliance with one of her great neighbors. Being unable to choose between her hatreds doomed her to sure destruction and in all probability to another partition.

              On that date [April 15] the British Government asked Russia to give a unilateral guarantee to Poland and Rumania. What good this would do, since Poland would not accept Russian assistance, was a mystery, but if that obstacle could be overcome London was willing for Russia to do the fighting. In reply to this transparent maneuver, Russia promptly proposed, on April 17, a binding pact of mutual assistance between Britain, France and Russia, to be implemented by a military agreement, which would guarantee all of the border states from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea

                The Soviet Chief-of-Staff, Marshal Voroshilov, outlined a plan to block German pincer movements through Northern Poland and Lemburg in the South. The Allies conferred with Poland and, after four months of negotiations, with German troops piling up on her borders, Poland replied that she did not need Soviet aid.
                According to Gafencu, Paris put the strongest pressure on Colonel Beck, but he returned a firm “No.” He believed the U.S.S.R. to be too weak militarily to be of much help, but if she were strong she would never evacuate the region occupied. He would not “admit that, in any form whatever, the use of our territory by foreign troops should be discussed.”

              (Bold added by me)

              The Cold War And Its Origins, 1917– 1960. Vol. I, 1917– 1950 By Denna Frank Fleming, Chapter 5

    • Randomgal@lemmy.ca
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      20 hours ago

      If you really think this “should be unsurprising for anyone” oh boy you are dramatically overestimating the average level of education on this topic for regular people.

    • grumpusbumpus@lemmy.world
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      Russian propaganda?

      The chest-beating confidence of people chiming in on Internet is appalling to me. Stop presuming you know more than other people and READ MORE BOOKS.

      The strain of American Exceptionalism in the typical American historical outlook is depressing to me.

      There were single battles on the Eastern Front which resulted in more casualties than the United States suffered throughout the entire war across all fronts. Look it up: Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov…

      The United States first seriously engaged with German forces in Tunisia in 1943. By that point, the USSR had been fighting with Germany on a massive scale for a year and a half. That was after the Battle of Stalingrad, arguably the most significant turning point in the entire war.

      The Germans deployed roughly 50 divisions on the Western Front. Roughly 150 divisions were on the Eastern Front.

      The United States contributed materiel and strategic bombing, but did not do the lion’s share of the fighting, killing, or dying.

      • mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works
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        All this statistics on manpower yet you’re completely ignoring all of the shipments of food and materials the US sent to the USSR under lend-lease. The USSR would have starved and run even more extreme shortages on tanks and aircraft without US contributions.

        Stop presuming you know more than other people and READ MORE BOOKS.

        I have read books om the Eastern front, from the Russian perspective. They tend to dismiss anything not Russian as a contribution to the war. That goes anywhere from claiming US materials did little tp saying that Ukrainians and Belarusians were incompetent, even though their soldiers, territory, qnd civilians bore the brunt of the fighting.

        Let’s also not forget that the reason the USSR was able to move their Siberian divisions to defend Moscow from Germany is because they found out that Japan wasn’t planning on attacking the USSR - they were planning to attack Pearl Harbor instead. If Japan had decided to attack the USSR instead, they wouldn’t have fresh winter-hardened troops to break the seige of Moscow, and would likely have to reroute divisions to reinforce a front line against the Japanese. And let’s not forget that the US was the backbone (though not the only member of the allies) in the fight against the Japanese Navy.

        Let’s also not forget that a significant factor in the Germans advancing so quickly in Operation Barbarossa is because a lot of people in Ukraine hated the Russians because of the Holodomor. And the USSR didn’t win any favors with Poles when they stabbed Poland in the back by partitioning it with Germany.

        Reread my earlier comment. I never said the US won the war on it’s own. I said the Allies won together, and that none of the members of the alliance could have won without the others.

        But maybe that doesn’t convince you. If not, I don’t care.

        Stop presuming you know more than other people and READ MORE BOOKS.

        I recommend you take your own advice. Pick up a book other than “Russia at War 1941-1945”. Preferrably something that isn’t full of anti-Ukrainian and anti-Belarusian propaganda.

    • LilB0kChoy@midwest.social
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      What kind of Russian propaganda is this? None of the allies could win alone

      This is 100% correct. Also, anybody who actually knows the history in detail knows that America concentrated most of their fighting forces in the Pacific theatre and served more as support in the European theatre.

      • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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        1 day ago

        This post is a basic history lesson, but if you want, we can get into the history of US support for fascism in Ukraine and how that connects with its role in WWII 😊

        • LustyArgonian@lemmy.world
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          19 hours ago

          Listen, I wouldnt jerk myself to ANY authoritarian government pieces of shit like you’re doing here, which has yes included Russia and their oligarchs. I read Navalny’s last book, did you?* How about that for a fucking history lesson. Do you know what the Holodomor was? Do you know why we have so much Russia diaspora? Do you know what Russian women say about wars in Russia? The wealthy of Russia have done FUCK ALL to protect anyone, LEAST OF ALL THEIR AVERAGE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY DEFENDED US IN WW2, except put their citizens into a fucking meat grinder in wars, put them into prisons to torture and rape them and kill them to sell as videos online so they can blackmail the people who buy them, and literally stolen their money.

          The Russian people are not their government. The Israeli peolle are not their government. The Chinese people are not their government. You misattribute to authoritarians characteristics of the average citizen - you’re stealing their accomplishments for the wealthy. Stick your history lesson up your ass

          -*Note how I never said Navalny was a good person in every position - but he is a great example of Russia’s authoritarian government seizing Putin’s political rival and torturing him for over a year. His last book is wild to read because it is from his PoV while he is in prison being tortured. I respect his capacity to spite fascist governments in control of his country (it’s notable that he wasn’t in control).

          Meanwhile, Putin has directly funded Nazis and Nazi propaganda worldwide so he can start wars in those countries to “stop the Nazis” to put his men in another meat grinder

      • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Mostly from tankies on .ml (used to be hexbear too until they were defederated). Any self-respecting instance needs to defederate from this trash uninformed low effort propaganda.

        • LustyArgonian@lemmy.world
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          20 hours ago

          Well, NPR’s Planet Money did an episode on this, the link: https://www.npr.org/2025/05/23/1253043749/pig-butchering-scam-crypto-tether

          But basically, they are likely slaves and not even spies (spies are too expensive for this grunt work). There are huge slave networks, especially in BRICS countries including Russia, where they just run political scams, crypto scams, whatever. The NPR story focused on a romance crypto scam and he said he went through several people pretending to be the same woman, and some would admit to being slaves. In my experience talking with obvious bots is that if you ask them:

          “Are you a slave? NPR says bots like you are slaves. Are you a slave? Do you need help?” I will get no response, or blocked and THEIR comments deleted so no one can see what I wrote. Normally if you ask them if they are a bot, not a slave, they will keep engaging for the content etc. It’s genuinely shocking how many u-turn and disengage when you ask them that. Ofc I always ask publicly to let others know, so they are not able to confess safely if they are a slave (they can DM ofc).

          Notably, Elon himself funded a scam pretending to be Democrats to funnel people to a MAGA website

          https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2024/10/pro-trump-dark-money-network-tied-to-elon-musk-behind-fake-pro-harris-campaign-scheme/

          Building America’s Future, the dark money group at the helm of the network, has steered money to a constellation of groups and initiatives boosting Trump’s agenda and spreading messaging aimed at chipping away voters from Harris. The dark money group reportedly received over $100 million in funding from billionaire Elon Musk, along with other donors, the New York Times recently reported.

          The newest effort to benefit from their largesse is Progress 2028. Building America’s Future registered to use Progress 2028 as a fictitious name on Sept. 23

          Some individuals have received text messages directing them to the Progress 2028 page.

          Progress 2028 has also started pouring money into digital advertising. Since Oct. 11, several digital ads on Facebook and Instagram have included the disclaimer “paid for by Progress 2028” — totaling over $36,000 in ad buys over just five days.

          While the ads appear to include pro-Harris messaging, they lean into contentious issues listed on the Progress 2028 site that have created friction among different divisions of the party.

        • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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          Imagine being so bad at arguing with people that you start commenting 500 times a month complaining about a website instead of backing up your own claims. 😁

    • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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      Poor little Yankee scared of a Vox article

      Yesterday what Zelensky said was Russian propaganda too

      Must be tough

      • paranoia@feddit.dk
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        The USSR definitely put in huge work, but at the end of the day, “Stalingrad” was besieged and close to being finished off, German forces were right outside Moscow, and all of Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltics were occupied (aka the most heavily industrialised areas)

        The reality is that without the USA committing significant industrial resources to its allies (particularly the lend lease) and keeping the Western front open, the USSR was a matter of months away from being finished off.

        The war was not won by only the efforts of the USA or the USSR.

      • LustyArgonian@lemmy.world
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        Countries don’t fight wars, people do. It was won by the brave young men and women who died fighting it and funding it, your average citizen. It was won by the people’s efforts then at that time. Respect the dead, respect ghosts, or your ancestors may force you to become one. Stop spreading nationalistic bullshit.

        • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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          1 day ago

          So, which nation had the most soldiers give their lives to put Hitler in the ground? Which nation had the most civilians murdered and expelled? Can you remember?

          • LustyArgonian@lemmy.world
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            21 hours ago

            Why are you ignoring Russia’s active efforts at the time to genocide their own people? They used this war as an opportunity to lower the population, something they do a lot in Russia tbh. “I would never have a son in Russia,” an older Russian woman told me once. Look up the Holodomor.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

            They were genociding the fuck out of people too

            You have to build your philosophy off more than just wanting a fake ideal of a country to worship, that doesnt exist because every country has had shit. You want to cultify the left, but cults require narcissism and narcissism requires delusion and thus the left will never be a cult. Cults are inherently right wing. Narcissism is right wing. Controlling people is right wing. Eugenics and wars are right wing.

            Since WW2, how many Russian men have died because they were taught to glorify all the deaths in WW2, when it was really the elites killing them on purpose in the first place? Don’t you see the brain washing???

            Eta: just like PoC in America were put in the deadliest positions in WW2 to continue the active genocides going on in the US. It isnt just one country, the elites, kings, etc, constantly are attacking regular people and propagandizing us about who is responsible

            • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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              20 hours ago

              Don’t you think it’s a little bit embarrassing to make up my beliefs to me lol? To present them with some cheap CSI style psychobabble? You have a historical vendetta against Russians as an ethnic group that transcends time period and statehood. I am well-familiarized with standard Wikipedia and Reddit sources that inform your outlines of dad history. Are you completely unable to engage with critics of your sources? Just admit it, this isn’t a serious subject for you and your emotional commitment to a narrative is all that’s important

              • LustyArgonian@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                I love the Russian people, read what I said again.

                I am not a fucking idiot so it’s the oligarchs and wealthy in power that I hate, worldwide. I clearly stated that.

                That’s not what psychobabble is lol

                I can see you’re unable to make any good faith counterargument to what I said, because you are unable to directly address my original points. I accept your loss.

                • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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                  20 hours ago

                  You accept your historical illiteracy and pat yourself on the back, because you aren’t being given a tongue bath. Dress it up however you like, but we both know you’re out of your depth. Treating reading a book like an insurmountable task when you’ll happily read propaganda by an open fascist doesn’t conceal your motives very well. Neither does declaring that your line of inquiry was a game, with a time limit, where you make the rules.

      • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Must be tougher for you to deal with reality. Genuinely pathetic show of thought, but I wasn’t expecting magic from a .ml goon.

  • Kaboom@reddthat.com
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    2 days ago

    It wassn’t any single country. It was the Allies.

    What shit-tier propaganda is this?

    • Soulg@ani.social
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      Yeah I always thought, you know… We beat him. As in together.

  • Fleur_@aussie.zone
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    The Germans were fucked. They could’ve stopped the war after winning the battle of France and so long as the British decided to continue fighting they would have won just with the Commonwealth allies. The economic situation for them was apocalyptic. The only thing Germany could hope to achieve by continuing the fight was losing at a later date.

  • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
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    US didn’t beat the hitler but US is the undisputed winner of the war.

    We currently actively pissing away all of them winnings though…

    Russian clown regime speed running loss of great power status

    China is set up to win by doing nothing

    US oligarchy is unable to maintain the empire. Too much grift.

  • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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    Seeing the Brits consistently polling in the 15% range is amusing. I wonder if the French being the subject of the poll has anything to do with that.

    Brits and their Empire were the only ones fighting for the entire duration of the war. They didn’t have the capability to liberate mainland Europe alone, but they sure did make everything difficult for the Axis. I’ve always felt that a peace between the Commonwealth and Axis, as Hitler envisioned, was the most interesting counterfactual to consider. No need for an Altantic Wall, no bombing campaign, no base to invade France from, no African campaign, no naval interference for their shipping or need for a big U-boat fleet, etc. Also dramatically changes the calculus for the Japanese Empire in the Pacific. If the Brits aren’t tied up in Europe, then an invasion towards the Indies becomes much less tempting, potentially leading to no Pearl Harbor and the USSR and China standing alone and being pressed from all sides.

    • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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      No mention of British intel supporting Hitler and Mussolini in the first place? Wasn’t just Hitler who wanted an alliance against the Soviets, that moron Churchill considered it a possibility too!

      • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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        He was certainly no fan of the Boksheviks, no question about it. He lived through WW1, when they signed the Brest-Litovsk Treaty and pulled out of WW1 against the Central Powers. When was British intel supporting the Axis Powers though? Sounds a little counterproductive, given his harsh opposition to them.

        • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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          The British openly speculated about the utility of Hitler against the Soviets, the diplomatic and intel side of it was much more nefarious. Chamberlain boys and the US capitalists etc who funded the Nazis and cozied up to them after the war are responsible, as for Mussolini this is also well known. Quick search on this site for WWII terms brings up numerous extensive discussions about this so I have no reason to believe this will be taken seriously either lol

          Britain ‘secretly backed’ Mussolini’s March on Rome

          • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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            22 hours ago

            Of course they did. They also speculated about the utility of using Stalin against the Axis. These things are common in global politics.

            Ah, in 1922. That makes more sense. Cozied up to a few of them post-war I suppose, the ones that didn’t hang anyway.

            • Avatar of Vengeance@lemmy.mlOP
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              22 hours ago

              These things are common in global politics

              Blowhard thing to say not even going to bother with it

              A few of them lol? For starters this is a very common meme have you not seen it? Doesn’t even get into staffing the entire govt of West Germany with Nazis. Tip of the iceberg. Don’t just bluff your way through history

              • Carrolade@lemmy.world
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                21 hours ago

                Blowhard or not, it’s completely true.

                No, I don’t find memes on social media to be healthy sources of information. Fine for light-hearted entertainment, but usually more propagandistic than educational when they try to be serious. Real history is entirely too complex for anything worthwhile to be conveyed with simple factoids.

  • sartalon@lemmy.world
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    General January and General February, the fucking MASSIVE Lend Lease program, Hitler starting a war on a third front…

    • ChokingHazard@lemmy.world
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      Yeah the US sending equipment to the Russians and other Allies let them resist until they officially entered the European conflict. While they may not have had the same death toll the contributions are often swept under the rug and while much is US propaganda/jingoism saying it was the USSR needs reflection on their own propaganda attempts and rewriting of history.

  • Sgt_choke_n_stroke@lemmy.world
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    This post is a few hours old… and the amount of “nuh-uh” posts from Americans is literally proving the articles point

    • Maeve@kbin.earth
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      Because Ethan Klein is famously a Soviet sympathizer and never deletes anyone’s work.

    • Rolder@reddthat.com
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      At the end of the day, it was a group effort, plain and simple. The Russian front wouldn’t have been able to do shit without supplies from the west, and the western front wouldn’t have gone nearly as well without the German military getting shredded in the eastern front.

  • lath@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Neither beat Hitler. Hitler beat Hitler. Simple truth.

    Up until near the end it was a one-man show. But all in all, it was just a shit flinging contest between a bunch of giant turds.