Now that this community has mods, I think we should come to something approaching a consensus on whether there should be a rule against posting “nice” comics from transphobic and other kinds of bigoted artists. People like Stonetoss and Jago who have a lot of innocent-looking relatable comics, but also post the most mean, bigoted propaganda.
And I’d like to present a third option besides yes and no: one might post comics from bigoted artists after removing the artist credit, if the mods think that’s a good compromise.
Fuck No. Just downvote and comment about it. If the comic itself is bigoted, then yes, please let the mods delete it. I don’t want the fediverse to turn into a highly regulated pile of garbage. This is how bureaucracy creeps in and we have enough of that shit already.
Edit: I like the idea of posting the name so people can filter and call them out.
after removing the artist credit
Oh god, please not. This is a whole different can of worms that does not need to be opened in this particular discussion.
I’d rather this place doesn’t turn into a Nazi bar, I’m in favor of banning hate
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you.
So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.”
and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues. “you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.”
And i was like, “oh damn.”
and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
- Michael B Tager
This.
I loved some of what was available on Reddit years ago. What really made me leave was exactly this problem, the fact that the same platform that allowed things I was interested in also allowed Nazi stuff, things like fatpeoplehate and jailbait. If you have a Nazi section of your bar and a pedo section of your bar it is a bar I don’t want to be in, it is a Nazi pedo bar.
Also, to be super clear, I am absolutely making the strong claim that fatpeoplehate was a Nazi subreddit along with jailbait. Nazis see people as less human when they don’t fit their narrow definitions of human, thus the term useless eaters. They also see women as breeding capacity without humanity and have strong tendencies towards younger and younger girls over time. These are solid links and part of the ideology, not incidental. If you have a Nazi bar it will be a pedo bar too, and they will also hate on people with disabilities and those who are lgbt+.
I’m about to drop a really hot take: The freedom to choose your body includes the freedom to choose to be fat. Now, most people won’t understand why anyone would want to be fat, and that’s okay. You don’t have to understand something to accept it. But going around saying that wanting to be fat can only be a fetish or a mental disorder, like people say about being trans, is not acceptable. We’ve got a tremendous diversity of different people here on this planet Earth, and I think that’s a good thing, because it means I’m never gonna run out of interesting people to get to know.
100% agree. I actually fit this well. I am a tall and fairly muscled dude. My body responds well to keto and I can drop fat fairly easily. I choose to carry some extra weight because I prefer how people treat me at this weight. I am seen as less threatening and less likely to judge which are important things to me.
Also, replacing pants is so expensive. In this economy?
already is
We personally agree in removing their comics, though should never remove credits even to a bigoted artist. We personally would rather not like a comic and it’s from a transphobic bigot -a fellow trans person
After reading the comments here I have been convinced we should create a list of these artists, and none of their content is welcome in this community.
Main points being:
- allowing their “nice” content creates a pipeline for users to their bigotry
- having it signals to new users we are ok with content from bigots
- it should make moderating easier because there is no need to deliberate what is ok by that creator
Nazis, racists, transphobes, homophobes are not welcome here under any context!
Bigotry belongs in the bin. Denial of platform is nice too. Banned creator list feels appropriate
I think if we require artist name in the title, people can easily filter it out.
Do not remove artist credit, people have the right to know who made the art. For the question of “can you separate art from the artist”, everyone is going to have a different stance on it, and even then it may vary depending on the severity of the artist’s action. Removing the artist credit removes people’s autonomy in that regard.
It also opens the door for people to claim “Billy made one off hand joke 17 years ago, so now we must crop out all their credit because it’s an advertisement”.
Consistent rules will be best. Making exceptions and attempting to maintain a blacklist gets messy to manage and can get out of hand.
This is the only workable option. Anything else is just asking for trouble in one form or another.
I’ll voice in favor of a banlist for bigoted artists. Letting bigots and other hateful people in with “relatable” content just normalizes their hateful material, even playing into possibly intentional “onroading” on their part to their prejudiced platform. It also reinforces the idea that targets of that hate need to “play nice” if they’re not being targeted right then and there, and perpetuates the falsehood that these positions are a matter of “opinion” rather than an existential threat to the targeted.
A banlist would present a higher workload on the part of the mods, which is not something I feel can be demanded, but it would be helpful to have if the goal here is to create a welcoming environment.
MissesAutumnRains also brings up a good point (https://lemmy.ca/post/63256113/22736751) - Leaving it up to users to block bad content does nothing for new users who will have no such curation, and who will be left to assume the community is accepting of such content. Platforming hateful creators will silently push away those who find their content distasteful and entice users that agree with it to stay.
A mod in this thread stated that people already submit a lot of reports on Jago’s comics. With a banlist, mods wouldn’t need to spend time thinking and debating the issue every time a Jago comic is posted. They can just check if Jago is on the banlist. It might add up to less work overall.
Perhaps. I’m gonna leave that determination up to the people doing the work, though. I don’t think it’s fair to try and convince a volunteer that an additional rule is or isn’t too much work to manage.
That’s the only way for comics or anything else because you can’t really expect users to research the whole ideological history of the author every time they see a funny picture and want to repost it.
I’m not sure I have a strong opinion either way on the censorship vs not supporting bigots debate, but, to the extent the community decides to ban any authors/artists, there needs to be a quick and concise list that posters can consult.
There are many comics in the world. Banning a handful of horrible creators won’t starve the community for content. It will create space for non-horrible artists.
Allowing the “nice” comics by horrible people just creates a funnel for people to click though and be exposed to hateful ideas.
If in several months the ban list has grown monstrous in size, we could revisit, but that seems unlikely.
It’s not book burning or censorship. The horrible creators remain entitled to host their own websites or their own instances.
Can you explain to me how censorship of problematic artists is not really censorship?
Because a comics sub on Lemmy is not the government or a church or any other powerful organisation that has any reach beyond itself
It’s a small community of people who are allowed to decide not to welcome bigotry
Ohhhhh so when its just a few people its okay to ignore things they dont like. Quick, hid that info from billion dollar fossil fuel advocates! They must never know the power of ignoring inconvenient reality. Imagine how well they’d sleep at night
If I step into your group of friends one evening and start an unprompted 4 hour lecture on 17th Century Agriculture, would it be censorship if you asked me to leave?
Small communities are allowed to curate themselves. It’s not censorship without that power dynamic, and on some level you yourself must understand this since your go-to comparison was ‘billion dollar fossil fuel advocates’
Curating would require active moderation. This isnt a proposal for increased moderation, but a content based ban decided by which artists are or are not haram to your leftist sensibilities at any given time. Why should the lemmy.world instance of comicstrips be censored when you can make a new instance like “safestripsforgoodboysandgirls” instead of fucking over the larger community?
Why should the lemmy.world instance of comicstrips be censored when you can make a new instance like “safestripsforgoodboysandgirls” instead of fucking over the larger community?
If most people here are in favour of it, then that’s why.
And then you can leave and make a new instance with your preferred amount of bigotry
“If we don’t flood the front page with Nazi stuff, we’re as bad as the Nazis” was always my least favorite argument.
Will you write “I’m an idiot” on your forehead for me? If not, am I being censored? Why or why not? Should you be obligated to carry my message anywhere I desire?
Nobody should be obligated to parrot your mouth diarrhea, no. But that does not mean its okay for an entire community to discourage your mouth diarrhea simply for being distasteful.
That’s censorship, just in case you were having trouble identifying the concept we are discussing.
Nobody is obligated but the community is obligated?
Personal preference is not censorship. Banning an artist from an artistic community because the community can’t regulate their own emotions is censorship.
So the individuals running a forum cannot moderate the forum. It must be open to any and all content. Otherwise that is censorship, and bad.
Well, I infer from your tone you think censorship is always bad. Maybe you’re just splitting a hair about how in a sense content moderation is censorship.
because the community can’t regulate their own emotions is censorship.
The biggest eyeroll
My big problem with censorship is that it dulls the mind. Safe spaces do the same thing. If your thoughts and beliefs are never questioned, you can never grow as a person. Echo chambers are breeding grounds for ignorance. Our world is not tolerant of ignorance. Being unable to react appropriately to emotionally inflammatory bait makes us all weaker on an emotional level.
If you want to coddle yourself, make a safe space to do so. Don’t take an open forum and limit it to suit your preferences. The internet is infinite. Make a new space with your own rules.
My fear with banning artists who have made bigoted comics is how that relates to older comics. For example I really enjoy those Jucika strips, but given their age I wouldn’t be that surprised if the original artist had some opinions that we wouldn’t tolerate today.
Regardless of my fear, I’m more concerned with having a space that’s welcoming to all people and I’m well aware of the “Nazi bar” problem. So I would come down on having a ban list of bigoted creators that aren’t welcome here.
I would prefer that the content is not censored by someone else’s moral compass. If it’s content by a transphobic or otherwise bigoted artist then let us know in the comments. Book burning is bad, no matter who is doing the burning. I would prefer to be educated than have someone else determine what is appropriate for me to view.
TL:DR I’m an adult: I’d rather choose for myself.
And as an trans adult I would rather not be exposed to it at all.
I don’t want a community that’s like 4Chan, I want some where that’s respectful and takes into consideration the wellbeing of its users without platforming hate artists.
I can respect that. I would suggest blocking the users that post the stuff you don’t want to see. I would prefer, though, that you educate me about why and how these artists are offensive to you. I can be a better ally if I understand. You gain nothing if I’m kept ignorant just because you say so. I also understand that you’re probably tired of having to defend yourself and explain yourself over and over again. I would guess that there’s an existential fatigue just trying to live in a society that seems to be offended by your very existence. I’m sorry. I try to call it out when I see it, but I don’t see it as often as I should and I think that hiding it, even comic strips, doesn’t help me to understand better. I need you, with lived experience, to point it out to me so I know what to look for.
It isn’t their job to educate you, in fact requesting that is putting that additional burden on someone who is already burdened by this bigotry.
It is really unfair to ask them to explain it so that you can be a better ally. If you want to be a better ally it is worth looking into it yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yAbQ-CaJXs
That is a good primer, but it is just one person’s perspective. If you search “stonetoss Nazi” or “stonetoss bigot” you will get tonnes of people explaining it in more detail.
Just to be super duper clear, I’m not dragging you here. I’m not saying “you suck for not knowing, you should know, and asking is just you being a bad person”. That would be silly and short sighted. I am saying that as a person who is not trans you are not experiencing the horror of anti trans bigotry all day every day and so you aren’t worn down by it. You surely have your own problems and they are real and hard, and so do trans people. It makes sense to listen when they speak about it and hear what they are saying, but asking them to spend their energy on your understanding is a different thing. You can spend your own energy on figuring it out and make yourself a better ally.
Thanks for explaining. It’s easy to be lazy when you don’t realise you’re being lazy. I appreciate you taking time to politely set me on the right path. I apologise if I caused any offence.
Not a worry. Now anyone else who has the same question will see your comment, my reply, and your graceful acceptance and hopefully follow your example. Somewhere out there on the internet in my turn in your shoes with someone else opening my eyes. I found it liberating to realise I could go find out myself rather than trusting a random internet stranger.
I would prefer, though, that you educate me about why and how these artists are offensive to you
If you really want to learn about why certain art is offensive towards certain people, go look for that explanation yourself. There is plenty of information out there in general. Don’t put this workload on someone who just wants to scroll a bit, they are forced to explain themselves often enough already.
My bad. Thanks for explaining. I apologise for any offence.
All good, I realize now my comment reads a bit harsher than I meant it.
Nah. It’s OK. It wasn’t harsh. It was direct. It was a slap to the face that I needed. I was being lazy and making my education someone else’s problem. I am self aware enough to see when I’ve made a mistake, most of the time, and though my intentions were good, it’s really not anyone else’s job to educate me. I also hadn’t considered that the “lived experience” I was asking for could be traumatic to recall and relay. Like I said, I was being lazy. I make mistakes. I try to learn from them and be better.
Genuinely great attitude. Hope you have a nice day :)
I don’t think the defining/worst/significant thing about 4chan is inoffensive comics that are by people who have expressed offensive views, and I don’t really think you do either?
No, I think the worst thing is treating it as a “free speech” place instead of moderating what is shared there.
Which is fundamentally the approach being argued here.
There’s a chasm between “anything that’s not illegal in the USA” and “you can post non-hateful stuff regardless of what the author may otherwise have expressed.”
Human rights is not a moral issue. If hatred were an opinion worth platforming, Nazis would have built movements fighting for acceptance rather than trying to violently force their view upon us. The fight for equal rights by queer people has existed for 1000s of years because it’s an identity. It is endemic to our species and you can’t stamp out identity the way you can with hatred that hides in a deplorable subset of majority populations.
Right… But we’re talking about comic strips, not about slowing the march of the third reich.
Education is better than censorship. Let the comics get posted, then start the conversation in the comment section about why and how this comic, or artist, is oppressing minorities so that we can make up our own minds. Education is the weapon against oppression, not ignorance.
If you’re so arrogant to think that you can make that decision for me then I’m going to resist you. If you take away my freedom to choose then you’re just swapping out one form of oppression for another.
Arrogance is thinking you’re smarter than propaganda. You are not. Your position is reactive and oppositional and ripe for mind control tactics. You are so easy to manipulate, in fact, that in one paragraph I’m going to make your blood pressure rise and flow to your amygdala.
But the propaganda hits us whether we see stonetoss in the corner or not.
Banning comics from bigots in a lemmy community is not remotely similar to book burning.
I support this rule. If I see comics I enjoy I will often go look them up. It’s awful to dive into a new comic and find hateful content that I didn’t expect. Prohibiting comics from known hateful bigots would help avoid that.
I’m opposed to a ban except for the most outrageous stuff. Let people downvote what they don’t like.
Hi! As of right now, here is my take on the situation: as long as the comics (and posters posting them) do not break the rules, they are allowed. If we were to ban content based on its creators, there probably would be a lot of content people would miss out on. Take for example Harry Potter. In my personal opinion, the author is a trash person, and I personally will no longer invest my time, effort, or money into their franchise. However, the stories and lore and fan base are still good. There is an actor who had a recurring (and popular) role in Star Trek: TNG (and a few episodes of Voyageur) who turned out to be a trash person. But, the memes and other content being posted about their roles are still funny and entertaining.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel that the content is not always a direct reflection of the bad values that their creators/portrayers may have. But, if the community as a whole wants to band together and downvote said content or petition for a new rule that includes a common identifier (i.e., artist name) in the title so it can be keyword filtered by individuals, I would certainly support those efforts. I am definitely not on the side of removing artist credit, even if the artist is not someone I like for whatever reason. They still deserve credit for their work; if anything, so as to ensure other people know who they are and what kind of work they produce.
And if you have other ideas for how we can address these types of situations, please keep them coming.
Keep in mind that the existence of downvotes do not absolve the duty of mods to moderate their community.
I’m kind of tired of seeing comics by known bad actors here. I could and have blocked the account that posts them, but that equates to tacitly approving of them, since newcomers will see that this content is allowed in a large community, without knowing that people are blocking them and not interacting with their posts. And by staying subscribed, I add to that community.
It is your choice to moderate the community the way you see fit. If you know of any alternatives that do have stricter moderation, I would certainly go there instead.
Take for example Harry Potter. In my personal opinion, the author is a trash person, and I personally will no longer invest my time, effort, or money into their franchise. However, the stories and lore and fan base are still good. There is an actor who had a recurring (and popular) role in Star Trek: TNG (and a few episodes of Voyageur) who turned out to be a trash person. But, the memes and other content being posted about their roles are still funny and entertaining.
The difference is the creators in question aren’t the ones making that content. A webcomic about the world of Harry Potter created by someone else has levels of separation from the source material, but if JK started a webcomic, I would object to it being posted and promoted here.
Harry Potter has a character who is a slave who was freed, and then became an alcoholic. That’s what slave owners said would happen after abolition. I think Harry Potter is very much a reflection of the values of its creator. And she spends her royalties on donations to hate groups.
That said, I do want to read Trans Wizard Harriet Porber And The Bad Boy Parasaurolophus.
Minority populations do struggle with high rates of addiction because of trauma. It’s just not the argument bigots think it is.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel that the content is not always a direct reflection of the bad values that their creators/portrayers may have.
I think on its own that makes sense, but without some blanket bans on known hateful artists, people are getting exposed to the innocuous works, and then looking up the artists to find a backlog of hateful content. And bad actors are free to limit test what extreme they can go to before any mod response.
The way I see it, if you as a user like a comic enough to research the artist, and you discover said artist holds values that are offensive to you, then you’ve learned something valuable. Plus, you get to make up your own mind whether you want to continue following said comic/artist. It is a fine line to walk as a mod (or person in power) to dictate what is and isn’t acceptable at any given moment. I learned this the other day when I posted updated rules re-enforcing the original “family friendly” intention. People were quick to point out that we are all adults here and should be given the option of choosing for themselves. And there will always be people who try to take advantage of the rules. I can’t say what will or won’t happen for hypothetical situations that haven’t happened yet, because I honestly do not know how I might respond until it happens. So for now, I am willing to give people leeway and go from there.
The way I see it, if you as a user like a comic enough to research the artist, and you discover said artist holds values that are offensive to you, then you’ve learned something valuable. Plus, you get to make up your own mind whether you want to continue following said comic/artist.
Or a person who liked the artist enough that they went to look for more views it under the context of “I like this artist” so they’re more likely to rationalize or defend the extreme or questionable positions and the community remains complicit in platforming hate.
It is a fine line to walk as a mod (or person in power) to dictate what is and isn’t acceptable at any given moment.
That is literally the role of a mod?
Wait, who was the Star Trek actor?
The one I was referring to is Dwight Schultz (Lt. Broccoli). There are other actors/actresses I’ve heard who have political ideologies opposite of mine. It’s been a disappointing year for me in that respect. 😅
Reginald Barklay?
Too bad his real self can’t have a character arc like barklay did
I do like the idea of putting some sort of identifier in the post title, so I created a new post for discussion.
I’m against censorship, but I’m pro for curated content. I would be happy to make a rule in which after reaching a certain amount of downvotes, a post has to be removed. I also think it is reasonable to ban someone if they consistently post content that keeps getting downvoted. This is no different than spamming or trolling.
PieFed has offered a full suite of these features for years now, as have some 3rd party apps.
e.g. not only does it offer automatic removal of content (posts or comments) based on downvotes, but it can alternatively collapse it based on a different, more lenient threshold, requiring an additional click to see it.
There are also keyword filters, and what I like most are the visual icons placed next to certain usernames - this does not “filter” their content but does let me see what I am getting into, so that I know e.g. that replying is probably not going to turn out like I may have hoped.
All of the above puts both the control and also the responsibility into the hands of the end-user, without requiring that a mod team constantly do extra work for other people. Which among other things will necessarily involve a delay before community rules can be applied.
