I will say, doing things the hard way is virtuous. It makes you stronger, it makes you wiser and more flexible.
But that’s very different from doing things the stupid way. Putting weights on your arms to do laundry improves you. Doing laundry with vegetable oil instead of detergent is just being an idiot
It can be, the difference between the stupid way and the harder way is if it’s better somehow.
Biking or walking to get somewhere let’s you interact the journey in a new way, doing things without conveniences like dishwashers or dryers let’s you realize their true value, which is not always as absolute as we’re led to believe
It can also improve your dexterity, balance, cardio, or whatever else. Taking the stairs is a harder way then the elevator, but it’s a virtuous habit to have
It’s not stupid to avoid min-maxing, everything is always a trade off
I will say, doing things the hard way is virtuous.
This is not true in all cases. If you want to go from New York to Maine, traveling South until you loop around and come to Maine from the north isn’t somehow more virtuous.
There’s a distinct difference between doing something “the hard way” and adding unnecessary complications. “The hard way” is just a faster way of saying “without all the modern conveniences.” New York to Maine the hard way would be walking rather than driving.
The virtue in doing something the hard way is that it gives you a clearer look at the details. Walking from New York to Maine would give you a much more intimate understanding of the terrain than driving or flying.
I don’t think we have a shared definition of virtuous, but I think it often depends on context. Taking longer to do something such that a deadline is missed and people suffer isn’t desirable.
I don’t think “the hard way is more virtuous” is defensible without adding so many exceptions and clarifications it’s not saying anything at all.
I’m actually really curious to hear your definition of virtuous! For me, it’s the ‘has an overall positive effect’ definition, not the wishy-washy ‘moral’ one.
If I was going to answer from the hip I’d probably say something something similar. Taking “virtuous” to mean “good”. Virtuous then to me means something like “benefitting without harming others, or minimizing unavoidable harm”
Typically I’d say riding a bike to your friend’s place is more virtuous than taking a car. Not because it’s harder, but because taking a car has many harms. Burning non renewable fuel and other pollution, encouraging a car-first culture, taking up extra space, extra wear on infrastructure, etc.
Picking up litter I think is virtuous. Making the area nicer. It’s not less virtuous to do it with a broom than your bare hands.
Maybe virtuous also can include “taking on hardship so other’s don’t have to”. Cleaning up litter. Letting someone else sit down on the subway. That kind of stuff. Those aren’t virtuous acts because they’re hard. They’re virtuous because they help people. It would be hard to put a bunch of painted pumpkins on the street, but that’s not benefitting anyone, so I wouldn’t say it’s virtuous.
Virtue is probably detracted if you’re doing it for gain. If I’m getting paid to pick up litter, it’s less impressive.
Anyway. Writing this on my phone while walking. Kind of a rambling answer, but hopefully it supports my position of “it’s not difficulty alone that elevates an act to virtuous”
I’d say we’re fully in agreement then. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that adding difficulty alone was somehow automatically virtuous. It’s maybe better to say there’s virtue in doing some things the hard way.
I’mma go with “its useful” to do things the hard way often enough to stay in-practice, as the hard way is both often a backup method and either the method newbies are trained on, or a differentiator between newbies who would rather let things slide when the easy way isn’t working, versus motivated people worth incentivizing.
Sometimes the incentive is “not having to attend remedial training”, sometimes its additional training and raise/promotion opportunities. Its worth remembering that todays hard way was often the new, easier way in the past.
It can be useful to do things the hard way. But to clarify, my position isn’t “never do things the hard way”. I was only saying that the hard way is not in all cases virtuous. There’s no innate virtue in difficulty.
Right, because that’s just a stupid way. You’re just taking a stupidly long path to your destination, you could circle your neighborhood 8000k times before getting on the highway.
Doing it on foot, by bike, by hitchhiking… These are hard ways
Adding in irrelevant detours? You’re just getting your clothes more dirty in the name of cleaning them, that’s just stupid
I will say, doing things the hard way is virtuous. It makes you stronger, it makes you wiser and more flexible.
But that’s very different from doing things the stupid way. Putting weights on your arms to do laundry improves you. Doing laundry with vegetable oil instead of detergent is just being an idiot
Doing things that are hard but necessary is virtuous. Doing things the hard way when there is an easier way is the same as the stupid way.
It can be, the difference between the stupid way and the harder way is if it’s better somehow.
Biking or walking to get somewhere let’s you interact the journey in a new way, doing things without conveniences like dishwashers or dryers let’s you realize their true value, which is not always as absolute as we’re led to believe
It can also improve your dexterity, balance, cardio, or whatever else. Taking the stairs is a harder way then the elevator, but it’s a virtuous habit to have
It’s not stupid to avoid min-maxing, everything is always a trade off
This is not true in all cases. If you want to go from New York to Maine, traveling South until you loop around and come to Maine from the north isn’t somehow more virtuous.
There’s a distinct difference between doing something “the hard way” and adding unnecessary complications. “The hard way” is just a faster way of saying “without all the modern conveniences.” New York to Maine the hard way would be walking rather than driving.
The virtue in doing something the hard way is that it gives you a clearer look at the details. Walking from New York to Maine would give you a much more intimate understanding of the terrain than driving or flying.
That’s not inherently “virtuous”.
I don’t think we have a shared definition of virtuous, but I think it often depends on context. Taking longer to do something such that a deadline is missed and people suffer isn’t desirable.
I don’t think “the hard way is more virtuous” is defensible without adding so many exceptions and clarifications it’s not saying anything at all.
I’m actually really curious to hear your definition of virtuous! For me, it’s the ‘has an overall positive effect’ definition, not the wishy-washy ‘moral’ one.
If I was going to answer from the hip I’d probably say something something similar. Taking “virtuous” to mean “good”. Virtuous then to me means something like “benefitting without harming others, or minimizing unavoidable harm”
Typically I’d say riding a bike to your friend’s place is more virtuous than taking a car. Not because it’s harder, but because taking a car has many harms. Burning non renewable fuel and other pollution, encouraging a car-first culture, taking up extra space, extra wear on infrastructure, etc.
Picking up litter I think is virtuous. Making the area nicer. It’s not less virtuous to do it with a broom than your bare hands.
Maybe virtuous also can include “taking on hardship so other’s don’t have to”. Cleaning up litter. Letting someone else sit down on the subway. That kind of stuff. Those aren’t virtuous acts because they’re hard. They’re virtuous because they help people. It would be hard to put a bunch of painted pumpkins on the street, but that’s not benefitting anyone, so I wouldn’t say it’s virtuous.
Virtue is probably detracted if you’re doing it for gain. If I’m getting paid to pick up litter, it’s less impressive.
Anyway. Writing this on my phone while walking. Kind of a rambling answer, but hopefully it supports my position of “it’s not difficulty alone that elevates an act to virtuous”
I’d say we’re fully in agreement then. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that adding difficulty alone was somehow automatically virtuous. It’s maybe better to say there’s virtue in doing some things the hard way.
I’mma go with “its useful” to do things the hard way often enough to stay in-practice, as the hard way is both often a backup method and either the method newbies are trained on, or a differentiator between newbies who would rather let things slide when the easy way isn’t working, versus motivated people worth incentivizing.
Sometimes the incentive is “not having to attend remedial training”, sometimes its additional training and raise/promotion opportunities. Its worth remembering that todays hard way was often the new, easier way in the past.
It can be useful to do things the hard way. But to clarify, my position isn’t “never do things the hard way”. I was only saying that the hard way is not in all cases virtuous. There’s no innate virtue in difficulty.
Right, because that’s just a stupid way. You’re just taking a stupidly long path to your destination, you could circle your neighborhood 8000k times before getting on the highway.
Doing it on foot, by bike, by hitchhiking… These are hard ways
Adding in irrelevant detours? You’re just getting your clothes more dirty in the name of cleaning them, that’s just stupid