When the accusation means the death penalty with no trial, nobody is safe
Trump claims the power to summarily kill anyone just because he says so.
Judge Judy and executioner.
That raises the question of whether Mr. Trump has legitimate authority to tell the military to summarily kill people it suspects are smuggling drugs — and whether the administration allowed career military lawyers to weigh in.
Eat shit NYT, fuck this sanewashing bullshit. "Raises the question"my ass! He absolutely does not have the authority because the law fucking says so! Why does the media bend over fucking backward to lick their own assholes by acting like these are even questions to be answered‽ They have completely abdicated their duty as journalistic media. “Fourth estate” absolute bullshit capitulation to rogue powers with dictatorial intent.
Because the media is owned by billionaires so they want to push for anything which expands their power and control
Extra judicial killings are bread and butter for US presidents, made really popular by Obama.
This is of course fucked, but there are clear precedents for presidents killing any one, including US citizens, they name a terrorist.
The deaths from Obama’s drones were no less judicial than the deaths from Bush’s troops, both were carried out within the definition of the ‘war on terror’, which was approved by Congress.
Trump’s strike on that Venezuelan boat was outside of the approved scope.
You got it all wrong. Extra judicial killings outside the US are Gucci. Inside the US you’re only allowed judicial killings and obvious ‘suicides’.
Show me where it was allowed to kill George Floyd then…
That was a police force, not the Fed. The Police are allowed to judiciously kill within the US. The Fed is allowed to judiciously kill outside the US.
Sheesh man, learn geography. And sarcasm.
deleted by creator
Only you are talking about inside the US.
Obama killed US citizens who were in Al-Qaida and ISIS training camps. I’d have done the same. Those fuckers are fair game.
US citizens are innocent until proven guilty. We do not allow our leaders to Proclaim guilt and execute even if it is overseas. We should have the same policy for foreigners as well. Anybody who thinks they can trust our politicians and leaders to execute people based on their own reasoning is quite mistaken.
We should have the same policy for foreigners as well.
So when we were storming the beaches of Normandy, we put each Nazi soldier shooting at us on trial first? Funny, I don’t recall ever reading that we did that.
Or going back a bit further, what about those Confederate soldiers? They were all US citizens, even if they claimed otherwise. The US government never accepted the fact that they were anything but insurrectionists (which is all that they were). It’s only the Confederate framing that claims they were an independent state during that time.
Fighting battles in a real war and intercepting civilian ships and international waters and killing everybody on board is not the same thing. It is an incredible argument to compare storming the beaches at Normandy with shooting a small boat out of the water in the Caribbean right now.
Let’s break it down.
US citizens are innocent until proven guilty.
There’s enormous and well-justified precedent for killing US citizens outside the US, and during insurrections within the US, when they have been determined (with due process and as much available evidence as possible) to be enemy combatants. For example, being in a terrorist training camp, or putting on a Confederate uniform and killing other Americans. “Innocent until proven guilty” is only achievable within US jurisdiction, and even then, generally not in cases of insurrection. Since the boat-sinking took place outside US jurisdiction, you’re mistaken about the applicability of that high standard of proof in this situation.
We do not allow our leaders to Proclaim guilt and execute even if it is overseas.
Declarations of war and smaller military interventions carried out according to law are precisely that. And on the smaller scale, there’s law governing who can determine who an enemy combatant is, and how that process should work. Those determinations are done entirely by the executive branch. So you’re mistaken, we do allow our leaders to do that, and in at least some cases, it’s entirely justified. A declaration of war is a proclamation of guilt and a decision to kill a large number of people. And there’s long precedent for it still being lawful even in cases where there’s no formal declaration of war, though I’d argue that a strict interpretation of the Constitution doesn’t allow military action without a declaration of war.
We should have the same policy for foreigners as well.
Assuming they’re innocent until proven guilty in a judicial proceeding (if that’s the “same policy” you’re referring to), outside US jurisdiction, is utterly unworkable in practice.
Now, as for the case of Trump sinking the boat, in none of this have I argued that arbitrarily taking military action, or arbitrarily killing foreign nationals, is justifiable. It’s not. It’s just that the stringent guidelines you have suggested are unworkable.
Hard to read this as it is leading with false precepts and misdefinitions.
The executive does not declare war, we are not in a declared war, US rights do not end at US borders, and lethal force is not authorized by our own rules of engagement here they were not fired upon or even in danger of losing them.
Your precedents offered do not fit, the one that fits is obama drone striking an american overseas, and that was a violation just as the nsa taking all information without warrant. Or double tapping reuters journalists in iraq from helicoptor. Both illegal by our own rules and laws.
The constitution supersedes all other law, and codified law supercedes case law. A precedent of ignoring the bill of rights does not legalize dishonoring the bill of rights. Any law contrary is illegal and unenforceable, in law.
That said, interdicting boats suspected of carrying contraband is not unworkable. Why you would apologize for the admin setting precedents of killing on a whim on secret evidence I do not know.
Anyone still deluded into thinking he’s not a dictator yet?
So now he’s trying the Duterte flavor of dictatorship.
Fuck everyone who clapped back at me when I said Bush and Obama’s extrajudicial killings would come back to bite us.
Habeas corpus for all.
Bush and Obama had the legal cover of the original Congressional AUMF from 2001. That has now finally fully expired.
No they did not. They started wars all over the place but simply did not call them wars. All without congressional approval.
Trump can do this so easily because they made it possible to kill anyone deemed a terrorist. All Trump had to was expand the definition of terrorism to include drug dealers.
Yeah well Trump has the legal cover of “I can do whatever the fuck I want” immunity which has fully not expired. Worst case they just tell him he can’t kill people like 3 years after he killed a bunch of people and he just says “no.”
I feel like the administration is going to have any legal backing, it will probably center on the rights of stateless vessels. Does the President have the right to use lethal force against pirates in international waters?
The US has universal jurisdiction to prosecute pirates and to seize their vessels. Seize does not mean “sink.”
As far as I know, they don’t have a lot of facts in this case to spin into a “the bad guys escalated a law enforcement boarding operation” scenario.
While sieze doesn’t mean sink explicitly, the argument is going to go to what acceptable force can be used against a stateless vessel not complying with an order to be boarded for inspection.
It is also international waters, not American soil. Legal protections in international waters are likely smaller than legal protections on American soil due to how international diplomacy created the law of the sea.
The US will disregard international law. The US also never ratified the un law of the sea.
SCOTUS has given POTUS (not just Cheeto chimp) immunity. Of course Trump will do whatever he wants.
The fact that so much shit has happened and it’s still the early days of the 2nd Trump administration is depressing.
Can you believe it hasn’t even been 8 months since he was sworn in
Were you not here for the first one?
There were railgaurds and they were mostly political novices the first time
As opposed to now?
He’s going way faster and further, and without his own people getting in the way this time.
It’s so much worse this time, and if you can’t see that then you’re not paying attention.
Well obviously but his first was such a massive shitshow I’m constantly surprised anyone is amazed by this.
Not really sure what railgaurds we have left now.
Don’t worry, we’ve tied the American people to the tracks so plowing through them should at least slow it down.
Americans have tied themselves to the tracks and are continually tightening the knots.
Meanwhile, happy red-staters point and laugh at the liberal wokies who didn’t shell out for the commemorative gold plated track ropes with Trump’s autopenned signature, proudly made in the city of USA , China.
Some idiot in Houston decided he had a right to summarily execute a child for playing a harmless prank
Yeah but he’ll most likely go to jail for murder. Call me crazy but I don’t think that will happen here.
In Texas he’ll probably get a quick draw award. Do you know how fast those kids run? Dude must have been chomping at the bit for years to end one of those quick, little fuckers.
When have Americans ever given a single fuck about Latin Americans? Except to overthrow their governments when they goddam feel like it. Trump murdered some rando Latinos on a tiny boat with an outboard motor with like, an aircraft carrier, and broadcast it online. Americans literally give absolutely zero fucks if he does illegal shit to them, why would they care if he annihilates brown people.
The US is a rogue fascist country.
Wait, what? I haven’t heard about this.
Wow wtf that’s ridiculous. You can’t just use your army to kill civilians.
Yeah, it’s a total fascist shitshow here right now.
It was within the last day or two. Near Venezuela. They blew up a boat they claim was smuggling drugs. They didn’t even attempt to board it, just shot a missile and killed seven people.
Rubio and Trump were bragging about it.
Just how many kids did he rape??? Now he’s KILLING PEOPLE in order to detract from the Epstein files!
I think you forgot that Trump just likes killing people, regardless of the Epstein files.
Bill Barr literally had to dangle death row inmates he could put to death in front of Trump like keys for a baby to get him to focus on certain things. Literally having to bribe him with murdering people to get him to pay attention.
Trump would be doing this anyway, don’t give him weak excuses like he’s trying to cover something up. He is a fucking monstrous person plain and simple.
on the one hand, I hope dumpy is dying, and hopefully very painfully. on the other hand, I want to see him in prison. What do i wish for?
I am hoping he leads Neo Confederates to defeat in a 2nd American Civil War. Trump is a symptom of the evils that have settled deep into the foundations of America. We need to do a proper Reconstruction to remove the malice and stupidity.
Of course, I would also like Trump to be the Orange Mussolini when justice finds him.
Does drug smuggling usually result in a death penalty if convicted? If not, then it shouldn’t warrant execution without trial
Even if it did, the trial bit is pretty important.
Regardless the accused have a right to defend themselves in court, the authorities do not establish guilt juries do. In or out of the us, citizen or no.
Unless self defense, they are not calling that specifically to set precedent of extrajudicial killing with armed forces. Next stop stateside.
I’m not aware of the US imposing the death penalty for smuggling.
You know, another country’s leader thought that they had the right to summarily kill drug smugglers. He’s currently in prison in The Hague awaiting trial for crimes against humanity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Rodrigo_Duterte
The US has credibly threatened to invade the Hague should any member of their armed forces be made to stand trial there. Ignoring them is a long long standing US tradition.
I think we’d make an exception for Trump…
we are all drug smugglers
speak for yourself.
America, not Trump.
Wear it.
No?? I didn’t vote for this shit
United States of America, this is America
No, that’s “The Americas.” In English, it’s widely understood that “America” on its own is referring to the USA.
Uh, I’m not certain that’s true.
An American person is from the United States of America, sure.
If someone said “I met this guy from America” I would genuinely wonder whether they wanted me to assume that the guy was from the USA or if they were about to clarify.
In English speaking countries, when you refer to anything from “The Americas”, there’s a likelihood it’s from the United States of America, and one might assume that, but it’s something less than “widely understood” abbreviation.
Oh and here we are, thinking everyone on earth speaks English. How American of you!
/s
We’re on a US politics discussion forum.
