How long until they start putting some kind of DRM in cars that prevents you from just installing an aftermarket android auto head unit?
They’ve been trying that for a while. They do it by routing critical cat functions through the radio that don’t need to go through there.
Daaaamn. The closest thing I could think of was my friends’ 96 (98? Whenever the EK body started) Honda civic that had the factory alarm and remote locks in the radio. He ended up splicing some wires and shoving the factory radio into his glove box or something to get around it.
So manufacturers can bill you monthly for the same features…
oh look another problem I’m too poor to have
Yes, blame automotive business that you arent able to aquire a new car free, that falls in line with todays snowflake mentality.
Got off mah lawn you damn kids!
Fucking clickbait titles jfc
Yep i never click on them as a form of protest
2015 cars came with bluetooth support for hands free calling using your phone. This was great.
After that, it was replaced with carplay or android auto as the only means to get hands free calling. Stupid…stupid.
Plus, last 2 new cars i bought, i had to take the interior roof apart so i could access the built in cellular antennae wire and remove that spyware P.O.S. And by the way, car works fine without it.
They didn’t really replace it though. Pretty much every modern car sold today has Bluetooth. You don’t have to use android auto.
Toyota didn’t have Android Auto for many years after 2015
Toyota also had Bluetooth before then as well in fact many cars had Bluetooth before then. I had two 2014 vehicles including one Tacoma which I still have that is Bluetooth but not Android auto. I will say having Android auto is nice but it is limited as well. My new 2024 RAV4 has Android auto wireless and it’s fantastic.
My 2018 Camry doesn’t interestingly enough
I still use that Bluetooth everyday in my Mitsubishi Outlander I don’t need more than this… I also installed some magnet mount for the phone case.
The only problem is that since December 2024 android release on Pixels it stopped connecting “media audio” automatically due to some timing issue or something. So I have to manually toggle that button on my phone since that day… (Google Pixel) And now Samsung seems to have the same issue since they started updating to newer android versions.
Google is not focusing on fixing this and just focusing on Android auto instead. But it only impacts some Japanese makes. I think some Mazda also have the issue.
I have a Samsung and I’ve had two of them this year actually three of them this year one fold three, one fold six, one s24 ultra and one pixel 9 and none of them have had this issue that you mentioned.
Right. And which Mitsubishi model and year do you have?
I don’t have a mitsubishi, you didn’t mention Mitsubishi in your comments. You mentioned some Japanese cars. I had a quest which I recently traded in and I still own a 2014 tacoma. Both of which are Japanese vehicles
On most cars, it’s probably easier to unplug it on the head unit side. They’re generally designed to be accessed for repair
I would be shocked if there wasn’t a single fuse just for that antenna.
I think it’s common for the antennas to contain both GPS and LTE. I think the fuse would power the whole fin?
On the head unit side, they’re generally separate cables
Correct the head mefia unit has the cellular plug. But to get to it, id have to remove the whole dashboard. The roof was easier
I am always surprised I don’t hear more discussion about Automotive Grade Linux.
Because it’s corporate controlled embedded Linux, you aren’t guaranteed any freedom or control. Hell you aren’t even guaranteed access to a debug menu. Technically a car manufacturer could make a open a free car running embedded Linux that does give you freedom but the chances are absurdly low.
TiVoization
Something something year of the Linux car
Man, that sounds INCREDIBLE!!! Never heard of this! Linux on my pc, my laptop, my phone, and now my CAR! 🤣
That’s what most? cars used for a long time (there is also GENIVI)
Many manufacturers are switching to Android as the base OS so they can just hire app developers rather than developers that know other UI toolkits
Every day I get more thankful for my hand-me-down car. It has no heated seats or anything fancy, but that also means no subscriptions, no wifi tracking/stalking, no digital touch screen over physical buttons, etc. All I’ve ever done is use a clip holder on my AC vent for my phone, so I’m used to it. It’s given me time to see how others feel about Android Auto and features in newer cars, and I can make an informed decision whenever my baby decides to kick the bucket. Hopefully I can get something not too stalkerish nor with subscriptions.
The sonata before 2018 is great, but you need to play the engine lottery.
I’m super pleased to have gotten a vehicle right in the breakpoint between dumb and dumber vehicles, 2018, center console without touchscreen, mouse/dpad instead, no connected services except offline gps with option to update maps via tethered network, no sos lojack. Got lane assist, adaptive spees etc but nothing actually ‘smart’
Next year model got it all, touchscreens, lojack, annoying android…
I bought a cheap chinabox for android auto instead of upgrading software via dealer for higher price, and now I can connect whatever I want to the system below android, enter ui for dashcams, kill it entirely or just use the good ol radio.
Not looking forward to ‘upgrading’ in the future at all, I’d rather let this one turn to rolling rust.
People also seriously over estimate the effort required to install an android auto/car play stereo and backup camera. One adapter later and green wire connects to green, red to red, etc. most of the work goes to watching videos on how to do it to get a clearer picture. Not to mention that even for something on the fancier side you pay perhaps one car payment and you are done vs signing up for another 5 years of monthly misery.
Mine was basically plug and play, most difficult part was being willing dismantle a brand new car, besides that it just took 30 minutes to plug the box into the main unit
Yeah I agree with you. I was talked into upgrading one generation for android auto. I miss not having a screen in the car. They’re just ugly and unnecessary on 90% od trips
Rent seeking behavior. They want subscription revenue instead of wanting to deliver what consumers want.
It’s not free you know.
Yes, the software doesn’t cost anything but the chipset is supplied by a single manufacturer Qualcomm and costs a bomb.
You can’t run it on a Mediatek or a Rokchip or whatever?
And then carmakers will cry that Chinese cars are reading over the market.
For the most part, it’s believed that carmakers are doing way with Android Auto support simply as a way to expand their control over user data. Because Android Auto utilizes your phone’s connection, all of the data that runs through it goes straight to Android and the phone manufacturer. So, by utilizing built-in systems, the car manufacturers would indeed be able to collect more data about how you use the systems in place, while also possibly getting more money out of you through subscriptions.
You are unfortunately correct.
I wish I could develop my own apps on my own car. I mean I own the car… why can’t I “sideload” my own created apps? Their apps are sht anyways.
Not only will Automotive Linux not save us it will power the new proprietary car systems
You can, but it’s a Google filled minefield. A good view of it is reading into all of the trouble of using Android Auto in GrapheneOS without destroying all the privacy protections. It’s essentially impossible to get navigation going without doing so, but audio for music and phone calls can be done with some hoop jumping. You’re still probably better off just using bluetooth though.
There are open source navigation apps. No need for google.
No, you misunderstand what I was trying to say, so I probably didn’t communicate it well. You cannot use any of them, open source or not, without allowing the Google Play Services some rather invasive permissions. That’s the Google I was referring to.
Best thing to do is remove google play services if at all possible. Installing microg will solve most issues. This of course means rooting the device. Which is admittedly not an easy task when dealing with head units.
.? No the information entertainment system is fully proprietary as far as I know. Without any way of flashing something else like Linux on it.
You probably can, just nobody bothers to do it. My Subaru has installable apps. Hell older Hondas (and possibly current ones) just run android. You can even get to the regular android UI on them.
I’m pretty sure the sofware that is running on the information entertainment system from VW is fully proprietary without any way of flashing it with a custom rom or running Linux on it.
I’m not taking about connecting other devices like apple or android phone to this system.
It kind of makes sense to not allow people to do that - just imagine what horrors people will create that totally will kill people. Cars are dangerous.
Of course I’m talking about the information entertainment system. Not the main Can bus that is handling breaking or whatever…
100% fearmongering bullshit designed to erode property rights. Cars have been completely “open” throughout their entire history until recently, and the problems caused by irresponsible owner modification have been both negligible and entirely acceptable (compared to the alternative of going full-blown police state to stop them).
Make no mistake: full-blown police state is exactly what you’re arguing for when you suggest people shouldn’t have the right to modify their own fucking property!
They would probably have a panic attack if they learned about megasquirt. Cars being locked down is so unnatural that most of their design allows them to be controlled by open source solutions.
People have been able to change their own brake pads for as long as cars existed.
There are two things hidden here:
- People totally got killed by doing their own maintenance
- There is a difference between physical maintenance and, well, you know that people will install some buggy self driving app
Why are you assuming that the infotainment center in a car can take over steering at all?
the entertainment system should have zero access to anything that controls the movement of the car. androidauto apps can’t implement self driving functions either. if it’s possible, the car manufacturer was incredibly irresponsible and needs to be sued into oblivion. see, the actual problem is not that irresponsible users could implement “self driving apps”, but that the entertainment system lacks any real security, is filled with vulnerabilities, and often even have remote access capabilities with bluetooth/wifi/cellular, and bad actors could load malware wirelessly that would kill the passengers and whoever else on the road.
Not only is is possible, there are many CAN bus attacks from the entertainment system I’ve seen over the years. That, along with your noted remote attacks makes modern cars a nightmare. It doesn’t help that manufacturers cheap out on basic protections to save a few bucks (see the Hyundai boys and the lack of an installed engine interlock).
yeah, unfortunately. but do androidauto apps have access to the CAN bus? I would at least hope that this platform would not grant access to it
One would hope. But given we’ve seen CAN bus attacks over basic radios, I wish I could say I was confident they’ve taken those basic precautions. Car hacking is one of those topics that can keep you up at night when you think about how lax some manufacturers are to save a buck.
Lacking government regulation in the largest markets, proper separation will never be enforced, because it isn’t to the manufacturers’ benefits. And that probably isn’t going to happen until hacked infotainment systems kill enough people to draw attention, unfortunately.
If saftey is your concern I hope you do not blindly trust manufacturers given their history of “safety and security”. My concern is software freedom: being in control of your own computing (instead of the creator being in control). All software has bugs, but at least 3rd party software isn’t intentionally adding anti-features and spyware.
He’s at least right on the front that physical maintenance is easier to do right and be understandable to your avg person due to its higher barrier of entry.
Digital lower barrier of entry if you can just side load apps means that some real dumb shit will be done that can cause way more problems.
Both of the possibility of killing people. But physical is harder to fuck up if for no other reason then you can see or feel it’s wrong. Digital is already a problem with distracted drivers. Let’s not make it easier.
Not to mention there’s literally nothing that actually requires the infotainment and canbus being isolated… So digital attacks are extremely likely. The rabbit hole basically always leads to do not allow user access no matter what for the safety of fucking everyone.
People totally got killed by doing their own maintenance
People have totally gotten killed from maintenance done by a “professional” (new kid on the job at the shop.)
I watch YouTuber CarCareNut and he’s shown many stupid mistakes made by dealerships.
I assure you I take greater care doing repairs than a tech who will get yelled at if they don’t finish the job fast.
Back to the days of rip out the head unit and stick one in that does have the features you want?
Car mechanics are basically going to need to become hackers.
99% of them won’t, but yeah, a couple will figure out how to ‘unlock’ your car, like a smartphone, install a custom OS on it.
I imagine they’ll try to make this increasingly difficult; maybe even impossible.
It already is for a lot of modern cars. Especially EVs. I imagine they are so tied into the functionality of the car that it makes the vehicle impossible to drive without the OEM headunit.
Couldn’t a savvy user just find an exploitable firmware revision, never connect the vehicle to the internet, and install aftermarket software or hardware to bypass the authentication checks? It would be more of a pain in the ass than the previous drop in system, but I’d imagine it’s possible.
Depends on how heavily things are locked down, and how much money this tech-savvy person is willing to risk on a bricked automobile.
If the auto industry successfully locks 99.9% of their buyers into their walled garden by making it such a pain in the ass to bypass it, they’ve already won.
I’m doing my part by living car-free, never liked them. Unfortunately that’s not an option for everyone.
The vehicle comes from the factory connected to the internet.
You’d have to find the exploit before they do, and it would be hard to replicate because once they find out, the only cars vulnerable to your exploit are ones manufactured before the patch who have been disconnected from the internet (which is like 2 cars).
It’s theoretically possible but very hard to replicate. And on top of that theres always the risk of the car manufacturer voiding the warranty on your $50k vehicle and/or cozying up to your insurance company and convincing them any damage is a result of you preventing their systems from running as intended.
It’s a messy high risk low reward game to play. Better option is to just buy a different car if you can.
I doubt it will be completely impossible - we’d just be returning to a situation similar to game consoles and modchips - any aftermarket parts need to lie to the “authentication” checks in place first.
I would expect that certain aftermarket groups would specialize based on popular models, maybe even prioritizing models designed to be interoperable with others design and parts wise (Subaru and perhaps Toyota comes to mind).
If it doesn’t affect emissions those mod chips will not violate your warrantee - magnuson-moss was writen decades ago to protect replacing your factory radio. There are a number of other laws around third party access to car diagnostics.
I just had a little magnetic clip for my air vent where I could attach my phone and put up a map.
I’d sooner go back to doing that than use a “Gemini-based AI assistant” in my fucking car.
I quite literally just bought one of those clips recently because I am done with Android Auto, and Google in general as much as I can be.
That’s another reason the manufacturers are increasingly locking vehicle features behind the touchscreen. If you buy a 3rd party replacement, you can’t control the AC.
Are you talking about music/NAV systems or CEOs?
I’d rip out the touch screen SO fast
And then lose control of numerous functions of your car.
It’s simply not an option in modern cars.That’s the “why I can’t do it” part.
But if it was possible to get knobs and buttons for everything and a small-ish screen only for info, I’d take that. I’d pay for that. Touch screens are dangerous. I’d at most be comfortable to swipe on the screen to show different infos like GPS, temperature/airflow, music/radio. Otherwise I want buttons and knobs with little lights.
I 100% understand what you mean. I just bought a VW ID.4, and IMO they have a good balance. Everything needed for normal driving is handled with buttons, and although some are touch, they do have haptic feedback, and it works OK IMO.
I was looking at the Skoda Enyaq, because it has traditional buttons and more things operated through them.
But it cost about €5000 extra for the same features as is in our fully equipped ID.4 when used and 4 years old. But now I’m happy we chose the ID.4 instead of an Enyaq with fewer features. Because the ID.4 works way better than I expected.
It’s crazy and previously absolutely unheard of that the Skoda version of a similar car to a genuine VW is more expensive.
And replace it with what? You can’t just hot glue knobs on the center console and expect them to work.
That’s the “why I can’t do it” part.
But if it was possible to get knobs and buttons for everything and a small-ish screen only for info, I’d take that. I’d pay for that. Touch screens are dangerous. I’d at most be comfortable to swipe on the screen to show different infos like GPS, temperature/airflow, music/radio. Otherwise I want buttons and knobs with little lights.
No need to do that. You could get a Slate and put in what you want.
Revenue and data.
Honestly, I think consumers allowing manufacturers to start integrating screens into cars was a mistake.
Knobs and dials are way easier to nevigate blind (whilst focusing on the road like we’re meant to), and none of that stops you plugging in your own third party device for other features, or replacing the headboard yourself.
Giant tablets with complex menus are dangerous to drivers, and only serve to milk the consumer for things they already had access to in their car as standard not 10 years ago.
The bigger and more intrusive screens have gotten, the more sales of new cars have flagged. People are sick of them, and lawmakers are starting to catch up on regulating physical controls back into vehicles.
The last time I bought a car one of my stipulations was a car no newer than 2016 because that was the last year that RAV4s had the small screens in the middle of the dashboard instead of mounted practically on the windshield, and the guy at the dealership that I talked to said that practically everybody who came in looking to buy a car had similar sentiments. People generally hate the big, intrusive screens, it’s just that car makers aren’t making any other options and then claim that that’s what people want.
The consumers did not allow anything. This is the crap they were eventually forced to buy due to lack of any other options. Electro-mechanical-chemical vehicle with a delco radio should be enough. We adopt new tech because it exists, not because we should.
Yes. It needs heavy regulation, physical buttons is all the driver should have access to.
We also need to ban subscription services in vehicles.
Consumers cannot be trusted to spend responsibly and look out for their best interests.
My take on Android Auto (I’m sure everyone wants to hear)
pros:
- free to choose the maps app you want (OsmAnd, Organic Maps, Google Maps or anything)
- stream music for the app you want
- decent voice control for maps and spotify
- decent integration with some EV charging apps, you can find and initiate chargers from the dashboard
- you can write your own Android Auto apps
cons:
- Android Auto app is very invasive, polluting phone with stupid notifications
- the standard is shit. Android Auto doesn’t work work with Android Go phones but it’s not specified anywhere in the documentation, wireless Android Auto only works with latest android but it’s also not specified anywhere
- it’s controlled by Google and there are no alternative implementations
My solution so far is to use cheap, secondary phone for AA (which was hard to find because of the stupid limitations). If someone would create a open AA client not controlled by Google I would put it on my primary phone. AA should now work with Graphene OS so I may try to set it up in separate profile some day.
On my GrapheneOS phone I have AA set up in a work profile that is paused 90% of the time. It works without any issues. Or at least no more issues than AA ever had.
I used to champion AA because every car just had that shitty apple connection.
Now at least we have AA. But it took so long, that google went from a good company to just as evil as Apple, so we have two asshole giants to chose from.
We need a Linux open source alternative for phones… But I’ve been told it’ll never happen because the hardware is locked down and too different to be able to run custom roms…
I don’t know what the solution is
The real solution would be for the EU to mandate an standardized open source connection platform that all car companies are required to support.
I currently use android auto on my truck. I had to make a bunch settings modifications to make it semi-functional. It took me months to figure out how to get it to do what I wanted, when I wanted it
For usability the solution is using some custom ROM like Graphene OS or iode. They support AA now.
For privacy the solution is to use a very old car with no infotainment. Modern cars have telemetry and always on connectivity you can’t control. Even Linux phones will not help with that. We would need open source cars which will never happen.
We would need open source cars which will never happen.
:'(
I won’t buy a car without CarPlay.
My current car has it and I love it. So I imagine Android users feel the same way.
If there is truly no option, then my phone is getting the window/airvent mount option.
I’ll never subscribe to their bs.
My car is from the 2010s.
I bought a GPS looking screen for $40 that has android auto and carplay. I already have Bluetooth added onto the radio for audio streaming.
Works perfectly for GPS off of my phone and as a media controller.
Only thing I’m missing is steering wheel controls.
I’m in a country where stuff in the car is not regulated as much as the US.
One of my ride share drivers had basically a 13” android tablet instead of the stock radio in the car 😂
It was all hooked up to the car to act as a legit part of the car.
Yeah this is the kind of shit I was looking forward to when I got into driving in the 2000s. But then car manufacturers started doing thier own non standard radios.
Then the car mod communities made kits to for a dual bay fit.
Then the corpos made radios required to service the car…
No regulations to protect the consumers let them do what they want.
The car part of the car should be completely independent of the entertainment part of the car. Fuckers.
The line can get blurry when you talk about EVs but protections should still be possible.
The third parties would win sueing car makers for requiring the radio for diagnostics. anti-monopoly and warranty laws protect moding you car.
Yeah I gave up on radio customization when I got a car that didn’t have a dual bin and didn’t keep up. Looking at newer cars and barely anything can be swapped/upgraded it seems.
In the us laws from the 1970’s protect third party radios.
Because GM sucks.
People aren’t asking for much. People just want their phone navigation and music controls displayed onto the infotainment. Won’t consider any car that cannot afford me this tiny bit of convenience for the sake of nickel and diming me.
And if every car manufacturer starts forcing me to adopt their own stupid software I’ll just buy a fucking phone holder.
And GM has shitty reliability anyways.
